Jan R. Schlichtmann suing the Pike

" C a state of Massachusetts yeah -- has that I and they are iconic -- story in just a front page that got out. And did the story is that the money that you pay for a toll is supposed to go to. Eight directs. Response from the government a direct service being provided not to something up that he did early on extraneous projects as out extraneous project here would be the big day -- is. Not the sole responsibility of the western commuters it's a responsibility the state and we knew and I've talked about it in political terms that chancellor and is putting it to a brilliant -- very -- in legal terms he's challenging the pike so let's say good morning to chancellor who welcomed at WRKO -- Thank you very much am -- on all right we just have a couple minutes now and we go to break and you it could join us again when we continue. Of course that'd be great I just -- we got two minutes of being set up force what the notion of your lawsuit is."

" Yeah basically that the that that -- that are being collected. For the users you know from 128 to Boston -- Ted Williams and Sumner and Callahan tunnel. Are being used for an unlawful purpose they're going to pay for the Big Dig. When they should be being used for the roads of the and the tunnels that the -- drivers being charged for and that's just unconstitutional. And wrong hands to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. And it's completely unfair."

" Now in terms of the law but what are you depending on to justify this lawsuit."

" Well it's been well established in Massachusetts and its constitutional law. That when you went public authority. Charges you for service gives you your beeper or something. That money charged have to go for that providing that service. And that money can copy -- be used for general purpose otherwise it's considered a tax and taxes have to be done. In accordance with the you know constitutional law so this is basically a an unconstitutional tax that they're taking money. That is being taken for one purpose and they're being used for general purpose in this -- in particular the into the Big Dig. "

" Now bit Thompson -- Michael host Sharon WRK it was a part of making this legal change I'm wondering if you're. As you file a lawsuit if you're naming Tom personally I'm."

" Yeah."

" no we -- will make this personal this is really about public policy really and in on how we govern you know are we going to be doing things. In a fair and equitable and an open and honest way. Or are we gonna be doing things that are you know basically unfair and dishonest it is dishonest unfair. To charge people you know for a -- supposedly using -- road or tunnel and and actually using the money dictate pay for something has nothing to do with that."

" Jim Tom -- him some sympathetic to the principles that you that you mention. And I cannot recall the specific language the legislature would have used but I suspect we probably said something along the lines notwithstanding any general special lot of the contrary. Then blob -- the bloc ends up being in this inequity that you pointed out and I agree it's an -- this the east west commuters get -- via the north south commute is such as me from -- in south of the city. Fraud -- premises I used a tip on you know -- tunnel through its -- a freebie to make."

" Right exactly and I think that it'll be you have a whole you know history behind the central artery project of course and you know. And and it's if you were confusing. You know that the money. That was being collected which was going to them you know the right purpose of take -- that road and now we're bankrupting the very authority that's responsible for you know the turnpike by putting on to them. All of these responsibilities for something they had nothing to do it we."

" Is really a germanic. Changing course that happened a dozen years or so -- ago when times spearheaded this awful reconstruction of the the turnpike authority. Into this new team to cheered -- organization. AA and and that the part of -- the covers downtown Boston which used to be a healthy organization people riding the -- used to feel the cause and effect of their. Of the FISA or pain because they saw they were right riding on the most beautiful -- it was well maintained well engine Google all that stuff and then Tom nested. Hot hot hot hot hot hot hot and -- now you've got crappy role like all the other roads and that it would even those fees are gonna pay for this other thing that is a financial nightmare and also a construction nightmare."

" Yeah you know I think that the it was there was a built in a prescription for disaster because what they say that they gave the turnpike authority the responsibility. For the entire central artery quarter. And then they said but and will make you responsible for that and Q and maintaining it. And up at work and we're going to help you do that but only up to 25 million dollars in other words anything over point five million dollars that's your crop."

" No running around to do now. Yep absolutely sidekick Jim have you successful in the -- what is the ultimate goal refund of the tolls the the the increases until that have occurred gone back to what 97. Are somewhere thereabouts."

" Well that's that is an open question which the courts are going to have to resolve it do how far back it do you do this and what is the full accounting. We think you that the courts will at least go back three years they may go back more and of course we need to have a full accounting of how much but the the turnpike authority's own documents indicate. That it it's almost half the revenues of more than half the revenues have been going other -- for the turnpike for the big case. Which deficit to the to a little over a hundred million dollars a year the question how many years back is that -- going I would do it's definitely in the hundreds of millions of dollars has been diverted. -- unconstitutional purpose that's that's that's that's a lot of money."

" Our jets like ms. -- he's an attorney who is a filing a lawsuit has filed a lawsuit. Two is this against the state of Massachusetts are against the turnpike authority itself."

" No it's just a turnpike authority which is an independent. Public forty."

" Okay and what you're seeking is a reimbursement to those people. Who have been paying these tolls would that be inclusive of everybody even if I win the last ten years I went through once."

" Yes anybody who paid patrols. At 128 also in Brighton. These seven -- hander Ted Williams Tunnel that is the money that was illegally diverted and nobody paid any kind of toll is Andy Andy told once or many."

" And that's been gone on for a long time I mean you know -- US system went into place around 97 is my recollection right now I got I want you bad but by the -- were worried we decided just to back our top of the hour news says so we can go straight through with huge hand in and get to the bottom of -- I just want to attack this. Underlying premise because I was talking with Tom about earlier the notion that. There's a responsibility. When the state is collecting fees are one of its agencies is that those fees go directly to that thing for which your pain so if you're paying -- a toll on a road that money should be going to maintain that road not another one innocent then. I a big intuitive -- that people had without knowing what the law was people coming in from the western suburbs have been pissed off that they've been supporting the big did. And that they felt that inequity but Thomas suggesting that when this new law was written. To change the structure of the turnpike and haven't assume the burden of the expenses of the big day. That that law would supersede whatever other laws existed requiring. That the that the fees go directly to the agency."

" Well I mean I -- they say hey I differ on this point is that they were given the responsibility. Of maintaining and take -- all these other roads. But that does not mean that when they charge a particular told they still have the obligation of good weather expert tunnel. Or bridge. Or use a road. That -- that is being charged somebody is stupid to use that particular road tunnel -- bridge can't be used for that purpose otherwise what you're saying is is that the authority just has the ability to text people. And and use whatever find that there are charging a service before it's really just the -- kind of a general tax. And that's why the courts have been very very clear you can't do that you can't. You know combined you can't make up -- attacks."

" why aren't we face is that because of something in the constitution. Or is that it has a whole lot about fees."

" Nobody goes right to win it means to be a democratic you know constitutional formal garb and our bargain with each other right from the beginning was. You know this is this is quintessentially American value you know taxi we love him and hate them."

" Faxing and representation and absolutely play until it was."

" I hope they do it right here in Boston means. So that the point here is is that you can't tax without the consent of the people being -- that's what we -- well -- the revolution no."

" And the idea the argument back at least one argument that would be that the legislature does have the authority to either expand our all our. And a responsibility of the turnpike -- of -- are of I guess really any Abdullah authority which it's created."

" Yes we can definitely expand their responsibility and authority but what they can not do. It is. There is say you can charge a fee for a service and then use that see that they'd be money collected for that -- for other things other than the service being provided and you are. Telling that that you are making it to be turnpike authority attaching a full -- yeah usually they're not they have built the House of Representatives here they're not the our representatives who can determine that."

" No purpose okay so that's where they constitutional issue is is that that power lies only in the elected officials be elected representatives of the people."

" That's what I am but I think that's what we -- that we we fought and bled over that issue is it you -- know taxation without representation and this is exactly what is going on here you are basically an and it's also based in -- taking one group of people. And you're saying I'm charging a fee -- service to do this but you know what I'm really taking your money -- for a general purpose and when you do that. There's been all of us are responsible for that and that's not fair to take it just from one group to pay for a all of the problems and sins of the of the larger this is."

" Very exciting genocide I think -- lead plaintiff in this one minute makes that point in in a really a powerful way Sandra Murphy of -- apparently she's aneurysm one of the Boston hospitals. And for all intents and purposes has no -- about legitimate transportation alternative but to get on the -- her colleagues at work -- from a variety of places and they use in the end. In although there are some of the improvements and they don't pinnacle."

" Yeah exactly and change you know goes specifically from our home in Natick. To a -- you know to have the hospital in Boston and she use of the term like she's never goes on the central artery project could go anywhere near and yet the money that. Is to know and keep telling a look at -- were raised in Riyadh told. Not to this road but this other thing that you're not even using it all the other people who are using it they don't get charged anything."

" Attorney -- like -- series filing suit against the turnpike authority if you have questions or comments 617. 2666860. You can take part in the conversation. So -- there is this is just fastening the constitutional aspect I'm so excited about this are you buying -- arguments on it if it's a good argument I can I do suspect this espionage they said earlier in the show. I think a judge is probably going to look at this and say -- in -- legislature considered in this and -- this thing and it's tocchet in its totality. Look to create an integrated highway system. Did speed is of the influence of speed is of authority and contributed something to it as Jim mentioned 25 million yet but then said to the -- you've got responsibility for everything else and that's that's the rub I'm not sure that a judge's gonna look and in and create multi hundred million dollar a migraine. -- to thank for you know it just doesn't just want to make them troubling me it could well it's it's it's not that yet it's not that a judge will dock on that but I think a judge confined in the legislative language that would use back in 96 -- 97. Enough justification to say that they had that this was not -- done already know about that argument chance."

" Well I mean that is going to actually that is going to be the argument but the problem with the argument is that if -- in fact that's true -- totally undercuts this longstanding. Separation. Between them a -- And tax because there's certainly -- every one of part of what the legislature was doing. It clearly under any analysis. This whole central artery. Project was. A project that was paid with the federalism and State's farms had nothing to do with what the the use of turnpike funds. And what you're doing is and and the money that is going by the way is going to debt service for all these past sins. Of the Big -- having absolutely nothing to do. With really the maintenance. Of this network so you don't even have the maintenance argument you know the maintain the entire -- But -- that argument doesn't work because the tolls are separated on the Mass Turnpike between the west you know from 128 to the west and all those monies are being used. For the purpose of maintaining the -- from 120 to the west. And then you have patrols being charged 120 to Boston. And half of those more than half of those monies are being used to do nothing to do with that roadway but to do with the sins of the."

" Yeah I think I think I know that image and I think the western system is an exact perfect example of the point you're making about. The toll of the fee whatever it is is supposed to beat you know directed specifically. And exclusively. You know to go to the maintenance of the -- and then that's so by separating those special really dark confession that's our responsibility is to apply these up appropriately -- a distinct possibility."

" The lied to the argument that really -- the politely I argued you you don't even believe the argument because that's not what you're doing."

" The 6172666868. -- skipping Steve -- this morning by the way for sire fans because we -- attorney chancellor -- Paula -- NW RQ good morning."

" There -- Rio de Paul but I question it. It's centered focus separated along the turnpike and I cannot make -- fourteen and I don't want it that the you know -- a Blackberry that. It got very except eight specifically account that India which it retort that section of road right."

" That's a good question of Pauley gave how targeted this thing is Jan. In terms of the respond you know if I'm driving down a fifty mile piece of roadway and then once all the support it is that a legitimate and where do you draw the line."

" No no this because look at it they're drawing the line every time they decide to charge a toll for specific use of the roadway -- they're the ones -- determining. I'm going in now charge you money for this use of this piece of the roadway and yes that money. Has been used for the maintenance of that piece the roadway just like when they charge you to go for bridge or to go through. A title so they are the ones who are establishing. The C and its irresponsibly say okay we're charging this fee for this roadway and it has been recently related to the maintenance and the cost. And the provision of that service. The -- that's what the law ideas otherwise what's gonna happen is you're going to invite them to say well -- collect this money but I really like to use it to this other purpose and then we again we are now. Dealing with this you New -- now really just taxing people you just raising revenue to use it for whatever you wish to use it for."

" This is WRKO -- and Jeff in west Borough year -- Jan selectmen hi Jeff."

" Good -- and I might go to what I. Each in Newton and every day I drive to work I grabbed my keys. And I just a lot of subplot air say thank you -- always being like. Drive -- and given that extra bit of money each state was wrong so I guess what they make you very much."

" And and by the way Jeff there's a website for you to go to if you want try to get your money back as part of this class action lawsuits -- equity trust dot com toll equity trust. Dot com and that's a that's another perfect example Cassandra Murphy the nursing chancellor represented. The previous scholar right mentioned some people who work -- On a regular basis to commence immediately at target at least a thousand dollars a year for a family and I mean for anybody was a work and -- that's a lot of money it is -- particularly when their fellow citizen let's say from -- very. Is not -- a nickel."

" Exactly people get up you don't achieve personal problems handy and and dive bars and Bob -- have no problem in pain that -- for you know for a service that they want to use and I want to have this. This highway that takes him into work you know efficiently no problem at all. But it just call them to -- to know that more than sixty cents of the dollar that they're paying has nothing to do with the road that they're voluntarily using -- need. And it's all going to all of these like actually the sins of the Big Dig. And which millions of other people are using this service and are not being port but they're paying for and that makes no sense it is fundamentally you know is under."

" On absolutely unfair and John in lol you're NWR Calif Jan selectmen hi John."

" generally thank you very much I missed which was the from the initial available. My question regarding the current constitution how much. Between the two. Body's -- winking and nodding at each other which is the most port authority and in Massachusetts legislature. Out of this happened why. It is absolutely essential they know they're doing something looks actually -- at the other guys. --"

" Well you know that is half. I have been doing this for 33 years and I don't have a good answer for that sort of frankly. You know I think although a -- oftentimes what happens is. In hope of power does things when it thinks it can do it and get away with that you know and that's why power needs to be you know the genius source system of checks and balances and the genius of our system about dividing power to three. It'll supposedly equal branches. The other genius of -- system has. The fact that we encourage open and honesty discussion of these issues by having a free press and a free media you know having the media that is -- supposedly going to. You know. Needed to make sure that that there's discussions open and honest. The problem is that that's system is broken down for us and for very long time we have its citizens accepted. This this way of doing business and it's wrong and and we're hoping that this. A lawsuit is going to be the wake up call it does look it's bankrupting us it's not working we can't afford to do business to govern ourselves this way it's unfair it's unconstitutional and you know what. It is bankrupting us so those are all good reasons to actually think about how we did wrong and actually maybe this time let's start doing it right."

" and I say this -- hindsight and -- twenty notoriously much much clearer than than than foresight. I think it would have meant a lot more sense solo politically we were hesitant probably panicked by the notion. To do a gas tax that's applicable to everybody and that's how you pay these bills instead looking at the turnpike which is what we did. And say -- you have got a healthy balance sheet and we can give them the responsibility the authorization for upkeep maintenance and in just expand as I mentioned a few moms -- authority. And say I -- balance sheet looks like it could absorb it because the states could not. And we went up front about it again probably because we're always panicked about the -- I shouldn't say so you showed power to legislature -- SNB we did the legislature is always timid about to -- think Todd that there always eager to raise them did Larry okay."

" This can be true how hot hot dog that did not scared about how to get at what they want. 6172666860. Tim in the carrier WRKO the -- change look man I attempt."

" Tim capabilities are let's set so high -- it's -- given the taxi. Now notice how their quality of the Arab sorry okay go ahead Jim."

" Note Tim."

" I point gentleman. And and it's what you'd but he. What do you think you'd have a duty tools that I got up. 6 o'clock in the morning we delivered it to his office and 9 o'clock at night we did in -- I've got -- statistics -- all they work in fact that I would like that. Well lots. Princeton. The site up that it will. And -- our work is our. -- And well people vote. You or your lawyer and I. Don't. What thing."

" They go a little less self -- areas in and there's another bat there's nothing better than get Maria Perez from real people like taxi drivers the cab drivers cab drivers of the smartest people -- American civil lawsuit Janice filing is a class action lawsuit challenging the turnpike authority on its collection of tolls and then diverting a big chunk of that money over to the big day. Which is -- says is unconstitutional you'll be going to court on Thursday on on urgent. Motion."

" Gathered to and is going to say that they actually we're gonna be going there in front of the judge asking the judge speak to attach. The real estate at the turnpike authority because they put it on you know for sale. And it's that you there's an imminent -- also pending of that property. And of course the legislature's thinking about abolishing the turnpike authority in taking over all of its assets that we want the court. To attach all their property to make sure that. To protect all the rights of the -- you know who have been you know -- Would have been deprived of hundreds of millions of dollars regional unlawfully we."

" Yes this is a wonderful. God you're going to the court. You can you can be the biggest pothole in the road to a more revenue in the way the government is fonts are so excited I didn't -- we are going are you a chance like I did it."

" I get more -- that out outlining a Washington. Think it's tremendous. If you look at not only what they're doing what holes. Stick to the Soviet -- with parking tickets and using that on the continent and that certainly has looked into what we're protecting you with that well. Which they representation. Look at agent out of Massachusetts. Telling everybody who's who are taxpayers are funding the poor towns. -- this this wherever they usable though local late to go quite a bit of what goes on a book trying to get creep which hit all the at all."

" Well that's our answer is saying does this have -- a broader reach when it go as broad as what David is suggesting June."

" Well visit of this and that's why I'm so excited about this case frankly for that very reason that this goes right to the fundamental principle what does it mean. For -- be part of this democratic constitutional government what is the bargain that we have made -- answer is yes the principal is a basic sound want if you charging a fee for service. And that -- see it which only goes supposedly to a special group of people who are using a special service. That you want to charge -- just for the use that's."

" You haven't Jan Davids is suggesting a broader application architect -- one in Boston's. Is an interest -- it and that's intriguing and but why are all taxes if it if it's taxation without representation is the underlying constitutional premise. Why would that not apply to the federal government taking money from an Alaska fisherman to pay for a Big Dig and in Massachusetts."

" Well we do listen to the basic principle is you know all events ultimate decider and have been a particular facts of each case that absolutely appropriate being charged. And then and instead of using their -- to provide the service. It is actually being used for another purpose in the answer to that is that's wrong and that should be stopped. If it's attacked it should be did not you know to know it should be attacked is something that all of us pay. Preserved for general per."

" Yeah -- to the point here is that it's really comes down to this. Is that if you're taking money for a general purpose then you want that to be worked out through your representatives you know that's -- constitutional form of government. And if the government in the and performance of its of its services is charging any particular group of people something for a particular service. That is not money that should then be used in general purpose."

" Okay so the lack of -- to the lack of representation part just to clarify for for everybody is that. There is an independent authority. That is effectively becoming a taxing in making decisions about and -- taxes -- already that it is outside of the can direct control of our elected representatives."

" Exactly and influence that you don't requisite you know they're that you don't influence anyway don't ever represented -- you know it's a complete deprivation of your car. The whole reason why we we fighting went over this issue."

" 6172666. Seats succeed -- intense in your NWR KO atomic Todd an attorney chance -- Hydro."

" Good morning -- you know I I think we should be -- But I at least through gas tax. Mike's here is that it does -- successful that the -- told looked everywhere."

" as of as a really good question you know people say well -- okay take his problem why should put tolls. You know what though the north part of the 93 of them will put in the south part of 93 and we'll have the totals take care of this central artery debacle. And the interest yeah that's one way -- to go get permission from the federal government to do it because remember it was public funds. You know federal find that went to pay a large part of that Big -- So that raises altercations whether they're going to allow you. To do that but these are questions that need to be is you know decided by the body politic."

" Pilot yep that's right by elected officials no question about I think Joe in the end and had the right conclusion gas taxes the simplest most equitable way to go everybody's everybody has to pay the same rate. And we have one -- let's be honest all -- get rid of the term what's."

" Option is it is a really questioned ended the point here is that there's something legitimate going on in the way the revenues are being collected now and then being diverted away from the road their charge for the Mass Turnpike and being used for other projects. And that makes it turnpike authority into. A substitute for elected represented Jim have you drawn a judge on this yet as a -- been assigned to roll that now."

" We do we have a judge determined Smith the jewel in a Middlesex superior court in -- excellent Dylan Beverly WRQ -- chancellor. -- problem. Taught -- feel I have been a lot of part of the registry of motor vehicle. Yes they can make hundreds of millions in profits."

" And -- in and Tom pointed out earlier window when the registrar -- took her grilling was here she confessed. That she was overcharging for something you what was that thing that they think this."

" Out of the revenue she set out of the revenues they collect they do have some they do apply some money to programmatic things be on the fuel costs of the personnel -- a computer is the data management and database of the."

" You want to expand your lawsuit Janet -- I'm sorry I -- He he is a Bob does a -- delegated its -- he's a troublemaker but is a good guy. Chance up biting -- enough not to have. He's thinking in my little race by -- the complaint goes down a little research that's right idea thing period -- time -- Diego chancellor."

" Man has been our guest and very very well known attorney and a good good guy and The Herald has. He is the story about his civil action against the Mass Turnpike will continue with your calls in a moment on I wonder who's gonna play Federer and in the -- are definitely going to get you know we should do that who will play the pot from. Hot hot hot hot hot hot hot."

" For national radio hall of Famer Howie Carr the issue of bathroom talk -- AM."