David Tuerck

" Civilian flag -- is the topic in the news today at omni from the Boston Police patrolman association. -- with us some -- some of the information coming out last -- hearing not confuse the respect of a little -- and one of the ways we try to eliminate confusion -- reference -- as -- to -- folks and was delighted to welcome a gentleman -- in the -- that the described was there -- a hearing -- jerk he is the head of the Beacon -- institute he's done some fine work on a lot of issues over the years I know David -- and that we have to welcome of the -- parents -- good morning professor -- Good morning common Marjorie thanks for having me. You have -- welcome with -- they have yes sir I don't know how much of the our conversation with Tom -- caught professor but. We do note from the newspaper reports spoke globe and herald you -- front senate last night at the hearing held that the transportation building. In you've been oft times quoted as an expert or an authority or at least have a person who's pushing aggressively to try to have this policy changed. In Massachusetts what's your take from last night's hearing did you hear anything that. Makes you pause a -- pursuit of this change."

" Well it appears however that -- like little puppies on the line abusive to children if you would've listened to the testimony that they were getting last night I was accused of being. Disrespectful to. Police who have died in the line of duty also hysteria being expressed by these guys and for that reason they're trying to defend the indefensible. Nobody -- reality believes that we should be paying 60080000. Dollars. Per year per person two two a man police what sites on public."

" So he understands that some of the key issues of contention professor the first day is. If this happens it it gave the governor has his way that we will have to pay a minimum of 35. Bucks an hour to even a flag person plots another Tony Baxter benefits yadda yadda -- that it will cost --"

" Nobody has talked about ultimately cost -- neighborhood of 55 dollars an hour including benefits all the numbers that you -- Around 35 or so but but we have to stop and understand Percival that we don't know what reflectors are going to cost so we start hiring them. We do -- that like yours and other states are being paid at rates far less than what the least beat till the cost in Massachusetts now. And the reason we don't know what they're or the cost now and we'll know until we get into the dozens acquiring them is that these prevailing wage numbers or polish or petition. These are wages that are published for. Work that is never going to be performed by a civilian flight what happens says that in -- contractor. Write a contract for a job inputs in at eight designation for a four acres signal urban and sticks it later -- in negotiating with the laborers union. It doesn't make any difference whether that person never hired that number just appears in the contract. Well over the course that we never speedy civilian workers -- and we will see them until we start hiring. What what you can expect is that forever will be organized provide. These services possibly hiring retired police that would make a lot of sense and are that there can -- themselves in competition with the police unions. And they are going to be offering their services at a more reasonable rate than the state is saying now that is what's going to happen."

" So -- and -- professor -- said to -- I believe I'm doing this -- and I won't be precise word for word but essentially he said to us that in the the job classification data that exists now. The is already a category that exists for civilian flag is and it carries the rate of essentially 34 bucks an hour 33 somethin'. -- EES suggesting that that's actually. A fiction."

" I am because that's a number that the department of Labor Day labor department's trial in the union contracts somewhere whether or not the that's positions actually -- after not that's the number that appears in what we know of course is that. None of these civilian sluggers are showing up works like that's where we're having this discussion because we want to get them all to work site. And what all happened under the new rules as -- firms that offer the service is a peaceful like this will put those services -- and that new rates. And -- could beat the rates or right union rates because they could -- priority unionized and general little. What the prevailing wage for civilian flight accurate we don't know now because those numbers -- pictures that -- represent. Jobs that are never being."

" But the basis then of the -- bush for this change in policy would be. Based on an assumption and might be very valid but it's an assumption then that the rate the unknown rate for civilian flag is will actually proved to be low locked in the rate. We are raw pain and now at about 35 bucks an hour."

" Exactly and if it doesn't go -- that we can continue to hire the cops. While that it does so competition in the process and and furthermore it's not just on assumption. It's preposterous to suggest that we should be pretty -- so earlier 68000. Dollars a year for a job that takes about eight hours of training. Nobody believes that that's what it would cost in anything resembling an open market for this service. And that's why taxpayers are mad that's -- the governor's taken action and that's what we have to take action. It we're gonna find money to do the essential -- repair at least be done."

" This is the iridium with professors -- ready validity -- one of the other points the police offices make is that that duty I'll stay with 35 that the 85 dollars an hour that they get paid. Remains a flat rate whether that's daytime evening. Weekends holidays it's 35 bucks flat -- if Marjorie and I those civilian flag as a maybe we're working for a 2816. Action now -- have well but no but did you know but then all of a sudden you locked into time and have double time holiday time whatever it might be is that a valid point -- perspective."

" Well all that it's developed or considering the work rules that are going on -- as they get paid. For four hours work if they just show up -- work and our that there is that those obvious betting on the east project -- drive along and you seek to retrieve these cops. Directing traffic at the site that record just warning frequently you'll see them doing their."

" All right I don't either -- then as -- let me just jump in here and say that professor David turkeys are against the executive director of the Beacon Hill institute we're talking about. And the governor has pushed very -- the police officers at construction sites and other areas. With swagger. Do you know anything David about -- the other states and we've heard 48 to 49. It's pretty much unanimity of the other states have passed a similar line to give options at least. As to where it whether or not to hire police officers civilian crossroads. Guard and what I did why are we sort of out there as an unusual state that we couldn't. Re categorized as as a crossroads. Daryn has reuse -- out of our public schools. And get that averaged hourly pay down to fifteen."

" But I -- the reason is that until now we have an -- over -- has been willing to stand up. To the police unions now -- and now it's going to be a change and it as you say. All the other states are used like here's at least on some roads and -- in most instances you'd like. And now finally were getting with the program here thanks -- governor."

" Professor rep Tom -- again and again we let me reset for our audience -- talking to professor David -- the media head of the Beacon Hill institute. Very -- very much involved in the public discussion on changes in paid police details Kia. Tom -- shared with us professor something that neither Marjorie notoriety had ever heard before. That Massachusetts as raided by the national highway transportation safety board. Has the number one high way save the wreckage fall. Accidents E end all. You know highway construction workers. So this scene he -- suggestion the statement is. That there's a public safety benefit a dimension to this policy that we have somehow that we get worse if we change yes that's somehow that would deteriorate what you take on. The his recitation of that statistic."

" I heard that statistic last night and I will tell you that we find it hard to find data on this we define data -- totality. Rates -- road works site at least some of the Massachusetts. It will better than the other states. Although -- would have to say that all the data that we've been able to pick up this pretty sketchy I I haven't seen -- need status sort out -- sea port comments. I I want support out though that in our 2004 study. We found that accident rates in Massachusetts were among the highest in the country. So it's very difficult I think to reach any conclusions about the safety benefits -- at -- details on the basis of existing numbers."

" let's let's take some calls that we can't professor route rich has been late in the cup for some time let's go to reach first rich you're on the it would professor David turner Tom -- in my jury -- Good morning rich."

" I just want to see well maybe get a better in myself but I think that he was trying. To clarify the act. -- construction accident not you know subsequent completion. The project like in you know that. -- tragic incident with a woman this tunnel she wrote that the roadside accidents. The rate is dramatically I mean those numbers were substantial 20000. -- how anybody can argue. They -- You know forget the money issue whether or not likely be about their taxes on their own -- takes great guys to be one -- opinion at somebody's got. I invited stick their kids up at a sporting event that's their opinion but how can you argue with the numbers that. -- you know you don't have. That construct -- employees -- I'm sure this would be comforting and white. I'd been without working on in interstate in effigy today or state highway. They know -- they're going to come home that statistically. The odds of them not coming home. With an injury orb ending up in the hospital are astronomically. --"

" In messenger let's not give the professor chance I appreciate the call -- in the point it's consistent with a couple of calls we got the last time we talked about this the wives of construction workers. From other states said it was unbelievable as like a Russian request to announce that correlation let's go to David for an answer go ahead professor Turk."

" So earlier when we look at the numbers and we've looked at fertility rates we didn't see any difference between Massachusetts and the rest the country. And there's no way that I can deal with numbers network or not last night in the middle of that still love affair that was taking place at the department stress."

" By the way right away I love you that your EU had a quoted in the paper today imagine you have bull whip my -- night -- about this early Iran. Where you would describe the feeling about as welcome as the mother -- honeymoon. That they great line professor Wright got. Which."

" want to say this is sort of free floating anxiety and I don't know if either one if you have a take on this but. I -- had since the the first time time that you and I talked about this. I have had several uncomfortable altercations with. Police officers you know who. Despite mine and 9% voting record with them angry that I would like to consider flag persons and they keep citing the safety factor. -- I still haven't had any -- explain to me why if some guy falls god forbid. On the top of of a building that is working we have. Why the presence of a police officer makes him more or less safe once the accident happened I can't commit me getting hit -- suggesting that. Workers are actually getting hit by automobile industry and that. Nine I hit less different as a -- Karen marketers not just I think it is I -- stretched to me."

" The everything I I I believe I -- again object it is my sense of these statistics that this -- that it's real lady that just relates to the work is on that site. In the immediate vicinity of the construction hole whatever it is it's not the guy who's working up on the fourth war moving steel loads the."

" Then -- I guess I rushed amphetamine it's an action is going to happen how does the presence of a police officer verses a civilian."

" Prevented that from okay here and not in that the -- in -- out he is how. Because the motorists to meet you off professor Turco members driving -- it. I'm much more inclined to be observance obedience and go slower. Around his busy site then that's -- the civilian that's a sure I think those ladies with eat mostly with a little bit of white hair and to have they had those."

" They they look like. Great guns perhaps and --"

" Who we are there hello you know arrest and that would -- talented as all lawlessness no I'd be skip the -- you just stand out you will continue to take calls Kevin -- from land Kevin Iran -- what professor terror advisory -- and Tom Finneran."

" Point on the -- that the -- Well you -- in particular I listened quite intently. Should be we have opportunity. What he called the Tibet but it unity and get my hat has been. For quite sometime and I'll I'll be up front I'm I'm favorite pass the -- proposal of civilian -- waivers. But would be glad to I get back and I had an opportunity with the doctors. Has quotation of statistic from the CDC we got an accident and so forth in Massachusetts. Took me about ten minutes to find it and that's what we find from the CDC is I think that. Highway fatalities in Massachusetts are among the lowest how relevant they they say that the reason that. Has nothing to -- with details have to do with the population and the congestion of the states. Said that because there was some vehicles Massachusetts -- congested we just don't have enough people -- enough to -- so -- and appetite that deftly and with. Rhode Island security in New York State fact that -- very low death rates. On the other hand they aren't quite interesting that you you've got you. Professor at tackle and that the government also meeting this study and I found it funny that despite the fact we have less traffic fatalities in the states. I'm muffin from 2000 point architects seemed to think that. In fact we have the highest rate of injuries and property damage from I'm from accidents -- being is that the police speak on stopping that from happening happen. Where any more accidents -- the 100 neatly into account that you found aptitude of the worst accident rate in the country come with. -- property damaged. And the second where I bodily injury sort of the boot into unprecedented preventing -- vicinity. What people are dying because of the congestion but having just as many actually the cause bodily injury propagated despite the fact the police subtitle."

" Professor -- it sounds like give a graduate student I'm ready and now -- further research."

" There aren't any different take a breath and ones. Are excellent order."

" Well like like you. Or that was about but it strike because I think what we have the concludes that the state or pretty. Confusing on this and and then we -- to -- comments sent -- I'll I'll say it again. -- state police officers paid forty dollars an hour in order to do detail work that translates to about 80000 dollars a year. You don't need to spend that much in -- to have effective. Traffic control at work site. And that's that's the point and it's let and the people -- at least find out why don't we. And coordinate with the governor's plans introduced civilians -- and -- of course. We'll find out how much we're going to say and the find out what the safety record at that these civilians slickers which appears to be every bit as good in other states as it will be in --"

" Professor would you concede that -- is an intangible value right and when I say potential abuse and were deliberately because I don't think it can be measured in any way shape or form but nonetheless. There is an intangible and positive value. To the presence whether it's a state police officer on the scene of a particular site whose then. Available to respond to a situation that developed that calls for that expertise I use the state police just as as the hypothetical. But in the real world -- where I live in Boston. I think just over the past year -- recount any number of reports enough herald which is in favor of Europe reform proposal I believe. -- citing chapter -- how many cops have made arrest for a robberies and rapes in progress and other things with the detail opposite response sometimes even to a fighter. With people need the help on the in the guidance that a police officer can provide."

" Yes that was it which -- making an argument forward more cops on the street. And and -- we're gonna put more cops on the street and we need to put them in high crime areas and I had to -- traffic locations. Well there really isn't need for uniform police officer and not just depend on them to stop a crime when their. Standing at some cult back in the quiet neighborhoods and where they're not going to have anything to do what they want that that's what the common sense. That we need to bring to this resident. Getting carried away with anecdotes about. Cops response to emergencies like a giant giant antenna and that they give it the cops so vital on the east traffic roadside. And they initiate crimes somewhere what happens to the job directing -- when they run -- Africa and the third."

" you know idea I I I also thought it did not make sense and I adore Tommy -- I'm not -- that he said this but. A third party attributed to demand that. It in fact gave him in the city of Boston. 200 extra cops. To have that many cops on D -- felt as though it increased the safety of this city to have that many more cops on D on detail. And -- his favorites -- and you just did which is if there were on a detailed him as far as three directing traffic in preventing mayhem and as sudden death. At these constructions of states. Then how are they about to leave you know when they are all points bulletin everybody report -- out of the corner of -- we."

" get I -- this professor David -- obviously magic clapper it is my cohost and I think we can get Ed group from grove one hey Ed welcome."

" Doing great at the auditorium. A question of the opposite when it -- an all -- the issue won't let that segment there in the 38. 830 got a pension Elton John now. I -- and I understand how we're gonna get these guys to do it and why that -- be opened the former state employees."

" Alex well I Atlantis you know I -- no that was that limitation -- restriction going to a professor."

" As such limitations I was merely suggesting that a sensible solution would be for retired police who have. The skill that we're talking about to team up with civilian workers. It's well -- they won't do the job somebody else will do the job and -- as a and then we also have to keep in mind that there may well being don't need. For the civilians legacy get benefits since many of them will be retired on pensions and have."

" And -- Some off of -- to thank you so -- esoteric has been great."