Talking Religion 1-27-08

" Good morning you're about to listen to talking religion thank you for joining us at this delightful hour here on Boston's taxation WRKO. My name is reverend -- on -- and host of talking religion. I'm a member of the united church of Christ in the -- clergy association and presently hold forth as realtor at prudential town and country in Wellesley. Talking religion is a talk -- like no other in the Boston area. During this hour you'll hear the voices of our Muslim Jewish and Christian panelists. As they share their views and values at the crossroads where religion politics and culture meet. Here with me today we have -- want to Kunin Catholic chaplain to students at Brandeis University good morning good morning Iran has to be here think tank. And filling in for a doctor Laura whom Mary Lowenthal is rabbi frank Walter who -- rabbi emeritus of temple Sinai in Brookline great to have you greetings there isn't that the and sitting next to him this mr. Mahmoud Jaffray the spiritual leader of the Islamic must mean sinner in Hopkinton and I also owner -- looks good morning. Good morning it's great to be here. Now I think this morning we're gonna play a little game of catchup to begin -- because. We didn't have a chance to get into this important religious observances and even then it's last week we have touched on this just a little bit in the beginning mr. Mahmoud Jaffray because this idea. As I understand it the Islamic observance of -- happens began few weeks ago. And has it came to an -- last week I'm not mistaken who. Tell us what leads up to the close this observance and and how it's as the holidays observed."

" It is perhaps -- of major events in the Islamic world. It is the Mark them all of profits grandson a sand after the death of prophet -- there was a debate as to. But who the right -- spiritual and leader of the community should be and according to the should tradition the responsibility was given to the progeny of Prophet -- starting -- His daughter and the sun and low and the and and he son is this is in the sand whereas the the incident itself has caused the tragedy of Karbala. And essentially the underlying reasons put it was that it -- Aziz who was the the the appointed king by a -- who was including king at the time essentially -- two and Apollo were too. Almost a madman who -- sat on the on the throne and and essentially declared that it Islam never came. And this because -- tactics on -- both the house mites the -- meets. Who with the custodians of Macau a trick to gain the economic power and and political power in the Arabian peninsula. And there was no prof written there was no scripture there was no put on and there was no profit in the and so on and so forth. And then he lost two -- and the grandson of four Prophet Mohammed put allegiance. To legitimize his food and and his government. Answer he was in a dichotomy he was in NN predicament that. Defeat except is -- on his mama -- his leadership than he is legitimizing. His moon and his message and and the the philosophy that he is endorsing that there was no Islam and so on and so forth so it's essentially. It would have been the end of Islam I did and then. And he basically had two choices to either except. And then and duo polish getting and -- Lenovo rose second commando or whatever all stake is claimants in their -- What you -- seeing is wrong and is a -- and there was Islam and and and I've been knocked you know condone that. And that he and that's the the position that he took that I am willing to protect Islam and I am going to -- or. And the -- children and and profit and is so not then traditions. So as it is our two to get him out of the way -- Aziz declared dead they met. And it the Peace -- a couple of where essentially all of these people who have. Soccer and and and martyred and and then did bodies and -- were brought in to what's known as school fund now and in. And they were declared as who -- and then and people who committed treason and so on and so forth so. He lied to the Islamic world that aboard and actually has happened and then later on people found out that it was actually the grandson of the Prophet Mohammed. So that sort of -- became the most tragic incident in the Islamic world and also. A moment -- Islam was protected otherwise it would have been and hopefully Islam so his death is actually considered. At a violent and then and then and then the people -- of Islam. So it's banned because it happened on tenth of martyrdom and on -- mean the first month -- for the Islamic calendar. The observance starts on the four -- my heart on and goes on for the or for the ten day period a more a morning punitive -- for the last 1400 years. Tenth is the is that David actually the incident took place. But it's observed what appeared -- ten days. So are -- drug this year. Who is being observed Saturday the nineteenth I believe wasn't wasn't so does that it in the nineteenth. And that's -- do that you listened to do you spend on day preen in men and listened to poetry in in epics -- and describing the Travis season and the tragedies and -- and the -- yes yes. And down. It's and it's an -- fear and then and you that tubes some mortified fast and then you break to -- the afternoon and and it's done every year and and depending on election and the traditions of the country that should in its observed in the market for different days and you on for example that would actually play. -- the whole scene you know somebody becomes as he -- someone becomes sand and you know so on and so forth and -- unfortunately. The guy who who plays -- has to hide his face from the community for the next few months so that people won't recognize him in the supermarket and do some pent up. And then the you know ahead and on the other extreme you you have the same tradition observed. And numb Trinidad for example. And lives of this as formal economy them. Where they actually treat this as a victory. And they celebrate. This victory that islamists saved and actually was and was the victor. Because he protected NC of Islam and there -- of doing that is through a procession and armament and drinking and music and you know just a completely different. Lived -- but it's it's it's amazing uninteresting. That such an important phenomenon is -- so gone over the word and they had definitely has a culture undertones the second -- other important issue. Is that this is also is sort of was a defining moment -- she does and the Islamic court. And you observance of Harlem on and its strict foam is the is sort of is the is that claim that that she Muslims -- And that's what distinguishes them from the Sunni Muslims for example in the manner that do so for the attendees are sure as a -- on with a word. But the Shiah Muslims were observer for ten days that's another. Sort of differentiating point between the Sunnis in the chants -- now is ash and -- is a month. Okay right and assure is that tenth -- are sure essentially means and out of it the tenth day Sosa tense still autumn which is court actually."

" If I'm more attuned to give the 21 century sermon. Two Muslim congregation what kinds of teens might the teacher provide for -- sort of like. Are the implications for -- when he first century Muslim in the United States what kind of an infant used to that."

" were while I was in Pakistani and we were talking about that is that. Significance of Karbala and and what lessons does teach us and and and today's motor and -- because and and moms and and one laws. That's exactly what they're doing -- look let's get ourselves away from this. The two mystic observance on the practices of my -- around the tip of the significance for border to send do lightly sacrifice his life and his family in this way. And that's exactly is is a message is that if you are on the right track -- you know be righteous and and and somebody deferred to parts constitution of that is that you know. I may be quota was a man who wasn't far -- Aziz army. When you're on an optimistic -- sober enough to -- sent switch sides. So visited north that's is that you know I am I I'm -- nominee -- army and the reason I'm in his army is because my -- has not arrived yet. So that's is something about the the the epitome all the let computer shipments -- these Islamic world is is is that. Maybe you don't have sincerely unit shipment may be if we had a leader elect saying. We will have people who -- be guided properties so a 21 century visit tremendous amount of references and and somebody isms which are referred to. Either political environment or in the social settings it's it's really used very very actively as as an offense and that's what you see some of these programs. Their goal to -- and and and and a joke. You know by the millions if the in the years and and UC self --"

" Would in this year boot to Indian head as a kind of Hussein's figures who. Put yourself on the line further -- since I didn't and all related."

" Right -- that the differences are all of his made. That -- have been made you know because she does come -- background you know you motherland and and a father and did references were made is is that anyone who gives it life and anyone martyrs followed in the footsteps of was sent and so on and so forth absolutely into its. Unfortunately some offered his political also because. It's just one of those feelings that people respond to and then you know to be strong sentiment that -- Muslims."

" I had I have a question because I know that the prophet. Mohammed was still really had a very strong sense of equality for women and and really. Accepted the leadership of his his wife. And I'm wondering upon his staff wouldn't have been possible given. That his daughter could have carried they that constant that the new religion."

" You know she she died very young and you know and and and -- album that as as to what would have been the leadership role and and and what's really interesting is that. The the so you plan if you were in on the the -- months of the Islamic order for example of the -- descendants of prophet Mohamad actually come from his daughter because he knew she never had a son. So clearly she's she's referred to as who'd the leader though. The word in in in as as the referenced by profit from a but we also need to understand what grabbed by a mention earlier is called a cultural nuances. Play into. The politics religion puts it one thing religion court allowed you certain freedom and and and privileges. But the culture compete he may be opposite to that and and and unfortunately Islam has been senator -- these -- and cultural traditions but it's predated Islam means some of the excellent and and the rules of the society as the existed pretty is com. Continue to be the case and then there was video to lose his mom could do to change that. So a lot of these injustices so a lot of these. Problems such receive when it comes to the attendant issues in his -- more cultural than than than religious."

" Thank you feel that and it turned -- father Walter Kunin because last week. January 18 to 25 was the week of Christian unity. Now my hunch is that a form of Christian unity is unfolding in our midst in in subtle kind of ways for example many Protestants unlike the old days fewer Methodist boy you're gonna find the Methodist church in the neighbourhood you move to end that was it and now -- days has been going on for quite some time people tend to select a church for many different reasons which. Have little to do with denomination and also Catholics and Protestant services are. Are looking a little more alike than they ever used to. And I and so I can't help but feel that well ecumenical discussions and it clearly our our ongoing. And I feel that that many people are moving a little bit away from it. And feeling than it did it's more important to have interface dialogues like we're having now. And instead of arguing over how many angels dance on the head of a pan from so I just ordered what do you think."

" And I think here actually been quite correct it. There was sentiment after the second Vatican council and everybody was so excited Protestants Catholics got together thanksgiving services because we were coming out of 400 years of a lot of tension and bitterness and I'm having done that enough for say thirty or forty years. Today's generation of young people don't have the same aspect of denominational adherence. They am am. If they go to services not one of their own they take part as they feel comfortable in -- Catholic. Students is only going to -- service that take communion -- technically not allowed by the Catholic Church but they they don't intend to those niceties. I think also a lot has happened has been a lot of rapprochement between the Catholics and Protestants. In the bigger issue I think his becomes more interfaith dialogue especially with the and the addition of the Muslim component to our country. And also the many great attempts that happened with reconciliation Jews and Christians. And that seemed you have and particularly the steam out of assailed the window of the sales for strictly speaking ecumenical. The other was -- service in Boston a few weeks ago cosponsor of the Catholic Church in the world council of churches. To celebrate the prayer for unity the need to we have to go further. And that remains and there are ongoing dialogues between. High level commission to the Vatican and other Christian communities. And there are tensions that remain and and also progress but I think in this sense the enthusiasm for ecumenical dialogue has blamed. I also think partly in this is -- Permian -- deeper question. Because many Christians feel. Well south of the difference I'm I'm not arguing this point and you say that. By your -- you're Catholic or Lutheran I mean we're all the same stuff more or less. So we don't have time for -- it's fine you know we're is a difference between Islamic and -- is is more and it's more pointed. So I think those are some of the factors that I noticed this past few weeks. There was a document that came out of Rome. Sort of dealing with a document -- last summer which seemed to imply that the Catholic Church was the one true church. And I -- these implants conservatives this is a little gentler tone. But also it reflected some remarks from the Pope of concern -- from this who congregation. Concern that Catholic missionary groups we're no longer interested in converting people. And that we must never give up the fact they were supposed to bringing God's message of the whole world to make baptize all the nations. When the Vatican is is a statement like that what that means is that that's in fact what's happening. And if you look at a lot of large Catholic missionary groups. Who's using those proposals to go to Africa are some of the place and try to convert them and bring christianity it's radically changed. The idea it is more witnessing to the love of Christ by medical care by being there. It's its -- wants to become a Christian fine. But so is in the Olympic thing going on in the world and that is that people are beginning to feel. That all religions have validity and while we like our own particular brand. Is not the same sense as it was before that. We have the truth. And all these four Canadians and here in darkness although there's still a number of those and how well when their car. And and the probably in this congregation Vatican making a statement. Of concern. They don't make these same -- this is what is actually going on. And that the Pope was reminding us that. Christianity Jesus is the savior of the world. So how do we keep that teaching and yet also respect God's love and all these other religions and that's that is the key tipping point in Christian faith today. So that's why I think the -- medical movement which is -- christianity. Is of a lesser importantly people of Albanian and then we like it in those nice but. It's okay easy easy -- but the issue of how does christianity really fit visiting the other. Great religions is a much more complicated one."

" This is it possible that they at least in the west and the -- bad. Africa and Asia but certainly in in the west and sociology has overtaken the doctrine that is that. We have a much freer society in which people interact. In my childhood -- the sixty years ago people didn't go Catholics didn't go to religious services and anybody else and the Jewish ceremonies were attended mostly by Jews and and at least in the last twenty years it feels as if there's a much greater are completed. A level of people going into other religious institutions and the witnessing if not participating. And that in that sense we professionals her guardians of the."

" How entries and I think you're actually did write a -- think he would say World War II for example. With -- earth shattering moment in America. Because for the first time northerners and southerners choose that Protestants Catholics and the whole world changed. And stop this when you grow up in your own neighborhood where who and is either Jewish or Catholic or whatever that was your world but the world is long gone. And so in fact younger people who they do not. And -- so concerned about the boundary issues I mean as Catholics years ago it was just Catholic faith that was your parish community. Me if you lived in Boston Dorchester were all -- hundreds of thousand Catholics and your side of the street was in Saint Mary's -- in this I was saint Peter's. You couldn't take first communion in saint Peter's. Because -- Mary's it was very strictly oriented and that's what is so much trouble they were closing parishes because we wee -- people -- home -- that's at westside story. This attendants at bat I didn't know about that you know that you can now see. Why people are so attached to their particular -- so you live in Newton for example now. And saint Bernard parish -- has been I think it's still open with -- another parish together. I knew somebody who lived. Actually in one of the other parishes but it was closer and easier for her go to same burners because the -- the roads go. And she did that when it came time for something like a funeral or wedding he had to go back to your original -- And as long long gone of course and hasn't said so are I think a lot of attentions Protestant Catholic not totally -- Stiller tensions. But the biggest issue today is the interfaith and that's why I think the ecumenical he -- there was a lot of room for dialogue I think a lot of that has. Is not as exciting as -- was entrusting. It was at a Boston phenomenal father over -- a -- I was generally across -- Boston city's big cities and large. Huge numbers of Catholics organized in parishes and but it is generally the approach known Canon -- as much for freedom people can move around that he."

" When I was growing and in this is you know with with no you know respected to my mother making -- which is shown it's an example. How tribal -- everybody was we've basically living in -- Anglo Saxon. You know Protestant neighbourhood and I happen to bring home really nice Catholic boy who. And she she did she really liked this -- she says. He's so sweet so nice that he's he's completely."

" You know what you've put and that's how you know even tell my mother may cast. Okay that's the irony of it but but that's how. House separate everything."

" What used it values about if it's within the Christian -- then islands. And use Chilean and Californian I was invited by one off my classmates. To us -- two. Which is a wonderful news festive dinner that you need from the and -- there was sitter yes yes. So -- the dinner I was sitting and chatting with -- grandmother and you know we weren't classmates and -- friends and she was so cute and she said. You know you're the nice young man and you know and and but some -- only politician she goes but you know you should -- you don't kind of."

" Not my grandfather I though that was very charmed me if -- And I look at myself into this -- and take it. Go to my grandmother who would of said the same thing probably. And you know intimate marriage is relatively new they're always with some. -- is much more common faith has considered Protestant Catholic no Italian Irish black satin. That was the real the it. But that's why we've made a lot of progress and again I think that the critical piece in the Christian world now is the struggle to understand. What does it mean to affirm faith in Jesus Christ. And also to believe that god works through the religions other religions have their -- value in in no way connected to Christian."

" Good example of that and I bring this up I know periodically is Diana -- book called in countering guide and she she takes it from Montana to from. Wherever content to basra and in India. And her at beautiful beautiful book on the latest spiritual autobiography is just you can. You can't put it down professor at -- didn't -- at how well she's not at Harvard divinity she sent the these school of she's at now -- our ports and I don't know the -- and the Asian studies are okay she's at her for whatever she's at Harvard and she is acts. On she does -- I think that the divinity school to but I should know her credentials and I apologize but the book is really spectacular in encountering god. And she makes the point basically throughout the book she had an intense interest in the Hindu religion just dove in you know and what she realized was that rather than. Pushing her in a direction leaving her christianity what it did was. Made her appreciate her own face and come back to her faith with just a richness that she had derived from. From searching through the Hindu religion and also having. Having our real love still a passion for that religion and Hindu religion so. It's it's Marianne very very interesting and and portrays her purse struggle with. You know where does her personal faith belong in the midst of this passion to find out about it and other --"

" I think the concept of personal. But the just journey is -- really useful one in terms of trying to understand all the different pathways that people follow. On that the ease with which. People can meet. Folks from other religious traditions has made for a lot of mixed marriages. On the difficulty I think especially among young people who think there is no difference is when people get into the that -- shadows I can remember a particular weekend when I was summoned to children's hospital a substitute for the Jewish chaplain who was unavailable. And there was that one -- ten year old child in critical condition and expected guy and the mother and her the parents -- in one room with a priest and a father and his parents where's the second room with me. It was sort of like at this crisis moment the spiritual resource is that people had the full -- didn't bring to yeah. -- and it it was a kind of I mean the situation horrendous to start with. But the pain was multiplied by the fact that they didn't have a common spiritual language to. To deal with the crisis so it looks fairly easy for people of mixed but then wind difficult moments arise in people want to fall back on what feel safe and comfortable and familiar. Then and it's not so easy so when I I don't know how to overcome that lack of a common language for."

" Crises and I think that's sort of what I would say in the defense of he's staying in your feet and -- in your faith and is that it's issues like that I had a similar situation. Not too long ago this lady that has been a friend of the family. You know. A brilliant creative she had been United Nations in the position then bred educated she's living in Washington DC now and she wanted to visit visit with me in. And I was tortilla Baffert when she opened of this discussions have said that in on BT two years ordered. And all my life I lived as a mainstream Muslim I was and I was a fear of my husband. And down. I'm actually tennis mighty Muslim which is. The ponds that you hear about these these -- he's -- one of those which wouldn't. Has community in. Falling him as they're living imam. And she said you know I'm at a point in my life I need to decide this to Holler want to use this word does. And I was you know. You don't normally these issues came up and into manages and in here she had to struggle on of their own. And so mean I didn't think that that at some point in time this season we have religion or not life is because we -- spirituality. In our lives and at least in Islam we have Sufi -- but allows us to look at. Other -- and other ways of reaching guard and and other earth you know philosophies and ideologies. And news be wonderful new horse who play. But you know exposed to coyotes that stuff unless you -- really grown continue to own faith and unit -- most women you understand what on and on of that -- Cabala as this is safe and forty years old exactly so. You've got to be formed when you don't believe -- for whom he has said and that's but all of the great thinkers and all the great philosophers in the Soviet nations. Have said that also so mean I think that is some wisdom. If you if you if if it ain't broke don't fix it no we you are and and then you have the ability to do -- John open and explore other traditions."

" I think that in obviously -- getting married that the I'll distract the was -- saying it's really not true and here you're better off for more you have in common. It's a lot easier is always going to be struggles and marriage medic is a struggle brother just it's last. But going to does and he said that frank I found with a lot of younger couples interfaith couples but you're Jewish Christian there's no problem is our love -- particular thing and neither one may be that connected to his -- faith. So I was find my role is to help and realized -- while seems okay right now. On the road when you have a baby you when are you going to do. Well we don't know see well -- reason both traditions well if is very difficult to do that you almost need to find some way of raising a child in one face of the shock and say look I'm -- Lutheran I'm Q I'm -- Christian whatever. But if they don't as you said frank when the baby arrives there will be tensions because human the couple themselves may not care that much but is a grandmother. This and not -- tonight why isn't this kidnapped ties. Or why isn't their breasts or whatever happens button again I think it does raises an issue that. You know. Maybe this isn't a strange way God's way of calling us to another way of looking at life beyond our religious denominations. Tandem not -- seen it done nominations as opposed to another but rather different expressions of God's love. And -- put this the first -- early in the modern in the world. If you've had all this possibility for intermarriage -- it wasn't legal wasn't even allowed some countries is not allowed you know would be forbidden. So we're we're just beginning a whole -- who experience of this."

" And then there's my case where. I find out and I -- in his speech to Diane Clarke who has written me a couple of notes and one of witches. You know can I say more about the fact that I found out that my grandmother. Was Jewish. Came out of lots my grandfather came lives she was a seamstress he was Taylor I'm watching you -- I'm watching now the PBS series and Jews in America which time passed me. And I'm thinking. And there was a statement about how many. Jews coming now receives juices and tailors and and my grandmother was the seamstress for the owner that the the wife of the owner of Hudson's which in Detroit. It was like Macy's and so she she literally made on her dresses. And so here I am notoriously stylish and your address but the and Xena -- at. -- gotta be tailored yeah I think. But -- you know the question I wrestled -- after united ordained in 1977 -- pair actions yeah I've been through some Rio spiritual crises I'm really had to wrestle with who is Jesus. I've come out Barney unitarian and a grant. Which it in -- sense. I can see why I was moving in that direction and then you know I would go with friends of mine to temple salaam for seven years and because I I just felt -- on at that makes perfect sense to hand year time of repentance and years news year. Now hate register theologically John to and then when I found out that -- secret a year ago. One year ago one year -- that I'm not kidding you UN -- Madeleine Albright. And and all the other celebrity's Manhattan with a my cousins and my mother is cousins were not least -- to find out how they would not please add. And they said there must be something wrong with the roster funny you know Township. But it's right there sitting Hebrew out of lots and Russian. So even though. They spoke -- the -- it is they spoke Russian space there days you know. What do you do you know it's it's. I sure personal identity yeah and so I'd just gonna -- I'm taking my time to listen through."

" Job regional it's it's interesting that if feed to believe in the monotheistic tradition that you -- juvenile we have technically. We all Jews then because of that's -- bloodline. You know -- because that's kind of riveted ends up. Except for tonight I quote this Lawton as another -- and appointments -- to mean that Mahmoud. We may be cousins but I didn't like who -- Ramos keeping with --"

" Sleep around yeah. That's awful good to her and that's the second white actors their guns -- it's one you know because they're there after Islamic traditions about Abraham journeying to. Cushman and when that's that's."

" How Islamic tradition it was established is that that the traditions is that Sarah was barren and she suggested to if -- that tape the lady had the lady in waiting as as your wife and from him came makes me in and nation when it was and then guard passage made and then they have brown two billion. Could the -- which is which is the home off guard bed every -- and those were pilgrimage of the info for -- so. Clearly it's it's something which we fought a very seriously you."

" At that. I'm I I wanted to go back of those that's coupled that you were talking about who got married and and -- they wonder what they're going to do when the kid grew so it feels to me like if you have the courage to live outside of religious communities. That it works better than this kind of conflict about whether to have a producer christening and I think we are fortunate to live in the time and a place where it's possible for people who live outside of the religious communities you think about a guy like Baruch Espinosa who is ex communicated in the have a lot of personal misery because his ideas didn't we're not worth -- enough for his community. And all through the Middle Ages ex communication really meant something horrible happened to you. Today for religious community ex communicate to. And you can find enough go go on and do some where you find none in and at least I feel more comfortable when when people say what we can live outside of any religious community can't -- that I would find personally difficult but. It it seems to believe that there."

" Let's just think him in Harvey Cox who has a well known professor at Harvard his second wife was Jewish his studio is Jewish she's still. And they raised their daughter as a Jew -- he's a Baptist minister and and he. He found is that journey was actually very powerful to as a Christian faith and he wrote a book I think it's called common blessings ultimately that. Jonathan used for couples to look at. And I think there are just other ways of doing at that perhaps we don't have enough experience about for example have a couple coming up in the spring well. One was Muslim one is from Roman Catholic and the requirement in this case she she has to raise the children Muslim she's willing to do that and time. So I think that that's okay too that. You might find it personally difficult for you know -- is your tradition isn't being passed on on the other hand. The children being raised in -- very. Viable religious tradition. Because many people I talked to they want their children to have something you know at least a basis they can reject it later but give them something. An irony of no problem in in working in this situation using go in the Catholic Church the Catholic married. Someone who wasn't Catholic even approximate Christian. They had to sign the non Catholic parties use of that term and the Senate document promising. To baptize children optimism which my mother refused to do that was all been done away with. But the Catholic is obliged in today's world and according to church law. To at least promise in terms of conversation. But he or she will do this with phrase what is in their power to share the fate for the children and then of course opens up a whole possibility of things."

" Until -- Paul Allen talks about time bonds in terms of and religiously mixed marriages that. You when you are in your twenties or thirties and I don't have a real child in your arms. It's really as easy to say I'll raise my child is extreme but when the time comes and that can't called you on the phone. And since points and -- Chris Wizner christening. Then all of a sudden it takes one relevance that you hadn't realized and I I think it's really hard for. A young person to predict how they will react emotionally as the life processor."

" That's violent and urged them couldn't take a lot of time. These things should be talked out carefully not just. Yes and I'm doing and and you you know the pastor or your pastor approaches there had been at the end of life you know. If you wanna be buried together -- can't be buried in the Jewish synagogue as Jewish cemeteries these most the ones around here."

" In Everett, Massachusetts there are all the lines. Jewish cemeteries and they're the guy that owns the the monument company has opened on the part of it for interfaith families and let them recently. So upon it. Let's give David that is changing -- I I -- I when I first saw that sign the cabbages used a lot of rules about who can be buried in his yes I was praying ground and couldn't believe. I've been invited now to has to a number of there and -- team if you can you know who who who."

" You know district had an interest in dimension from the Islamic prospective and in defense of phone put a -- ism -- polygamy if you wouldn't Nome more than one wife it was. A cultural tradition. And the Arabs that many won't gonna are on the try -- you either give your daughter or you've taken this -- as as a group what you'd use in your daughter has a bright or. And -- in the same social economic and standards and then and so on and so forth but. That's why if you the the the justification for profits multiple wives. Was that each one of them came from a few that are different tribe or even a different faith. They're presented the the Christian faith I'm not sure whether it and the of them were from the from the Jewish -- because and then they -- has -- have been because. And removed from the -- come from Mecca which was a Jewish community so in somebody is the -- manages conducted -- entered into. To create bonds and and this historically that has been."

" Science Solomon had lots of foreign wives and I assume contracted for political reasons -- profits scope of the stick about. They admit that they need slid him I think he flat when it changes subject."

" Because so often we feel helpless in the face of the world's problems but. Here's -- problem that I think each church mosque and synagogue can truly and easily helped to -- And it's a problem that crosses religions races ages classes in neighborhoods. And it is the issue of domestic violence and it's an age old patriarch will issue enforced by all of our religions whether consciously or unconsciously and consciously and it's insidious. Only recently in this country has it and given the judicial recognition that's been needed I remember the days when the police could get -- to a house and they would see -- made the wife could be on the floor bleeding and who knows maybe dying in the places that wow you know this is this is a squabble between husband and wife -- not getting adopted his domestic issue and they get their cars in the back. Donation and somebody might have read recently in the globe and the New York Times fact that due to government cuts. Many shelters for victimize women. Have had to close down and these women are faced with either going back to their abusive situations because -- decades and had no way where they ago or they -- to the streets -- made it fine and shelter but and it's it's not. A shelter for women they can be found and so their their lives become almost more endangered and then what's worse I read about is that many Muslim women faced discrimination when they show up at the door. And they're they're -- that there asked to take their veils off and they're given you know taking care giving hairdos and things like that that they. Some of these shelters do now want to have. The veils then Muslim movement are also on a difficult position because it's fate acknowledged their rights to beat there. Then they're seen yeah. As being -- kind of collusion with -- with those who were attacking Muslim men and is being you know sort of roots. Means that that question and it is how to speak out without adding to the stereotype that Muslim men are barbaric repressive -- terrible when I mean it happens across all. You know every people as I said earlier I'm curious to know if that panel and it panelists have addressed this issue of domestic violence and with your congregations. Your people and what has been Paris France."

" Well you know and from the Islamic point of view we have been getting a lot of bad press and -- people news. Looking at some of these gender abuses in its own these sketches. And implicating Islam and and some say it's it it is an unfair assessment of the situation for example alone. Honor killing you know meal on the court about it -- scenic view view we have -- in the papers within Islam condones them or -- president's policy that is right to do that and it's it's a -- it's. Capital crime and you know the person who's committing this is has to be put -- by death some in this clearly that's just something that me of people who have through their tribal systems and through their dark ages and through their ignorance them and -- come up Japan. -- situation. And none an and manages in the abuse and manages to give united an example and when a man and woman and two into -- its contract. Ordinarily in order traditions there's only one priest conducting the service. But in the Islamic tradition especially in this Shiite tradition there actually two trees which are conducting the ceremony. And one is the presenting the woman and the other one isn't presenting the man so it's an equal or transaction and not only that. It's actually the woman who is proposition in demand that I except you. I -- on -- and you -- come into -- a contract with me. Do you accept so the authority has been given to the woman -- would be pressured into Medina demand because. The the solicitation has to start and initiate from the woman. And that goes back to. The the fact that. It's the Santa appeals -- woman and her body and and and that a nation and the outcome of the relationships because she yesterday with the issues. The -- book and that it and of the -- with him and so on and so forth so. Because that is such a monumental costs she's also given the privilege and the authority to enter it into two that's -- that important to you about not. Obviously it's our practice and and and and and the abuses there. The lord of these a platoon issues once again and and they -- very. Mostly women and in America I live one way and and the abuses are -- different format. And the London China recorded of I don't know what and India distrust the I was in India and and I eyewitness of any interest in situation. On this is a non Muslim country. There was a tiff between a man and woman and an in this case is that woman was the aggressive she was screaming at this man. So immediately good sort of the local them -- sort of came down and and their first question most with a woman -- who is this man she said he is my husband. And in three seconds flat favorably disposed says if nothing happened. -- that's was a video cultural thing if a crime is being committed it doesn't really matter -- over the board gender it is and so on and so for remember that was a stuff. Tip of the iceberg that because you and a two million. That arrangement all bets are off suddenly think it's a constant situation and and and and Islam really -- V and I've been for."

" About ten years ago I -- along with several league leaders in my congregation took some training from group in Boston of them. A spouse abuse. And as a result of that so we put up signs like you don't have to put up with abuse. And here are some telephone numbers and trust this past week I was pleased to go into the bathroom it. Temple Sinai one of the news and multi gender once and that there is still assigned there. With those telephone numbers hopefully more up to -- the but it's it's a terrible problem as I recall the training that. There is a kind of an ideology behind spouse abuse that says and -- is supposed to control the behavior of the wife I don't children so -- so it's sort of like. A duty a responsibility and if they go with strange that that somehow -- at fault. And so I need to enforce the rules even if it means resorting to violence. And our -- Even when people are mandated to go in there. To training programs that basic ideology has not been dealt with it. And -- it's not clear commuted it has a religious basis though there's certainly many things in in terms of male dominance and then to."

" But it patriarch cool. Values certainly the -- current major force in domestic violence -- takes some of the Christian scriptures. You know women can be obedient to your husband's that kind of tone which was certainly expressed in the rituals that you forget the other half. -- that their husbands are supposed to hopeless are supposed to be was this amplifier you know. But -- but the tone certainly a lot of the Christian tradition has been very much patriarch -- The woman women's religious congregations for example always used after -- cardinal protector. Men had to protect them and even in the marriage rituals and the blessing for the wife is different than from the group in the sense than white there's more -- me she. Find comfort her husband be modeled in the home and houses -- me he. He -- strong that this hints on what type of hierarchy if you will."

" I'm sorry we get a stuffit here and it's all the time that we have for David thank you for joining us this morning for talking religion on Boston's talk station WRKO. We hope that you will join us again next Sunday at 5 AM as we continue to discuss issues of the day -- our respective religious -- Thanks to the members of her and her -- panel father Walter Kunin Catholic chaplain to students at Brandeis University. Rabbi frank Waldorf rabbi emeritus of temple Sinai in Brookline sitting in -- doctor Mary loans. And mr. Mahmoud Jaffray spiritual leader of the Islamic -- mean center in Hopkinton. And thanks to -- Henderson for his technical assistance and now this is reverend sun and snow extending -- an invitation to comment on today's program. Or to make suggestions for topics you'd like to hear discussed. Write to us talking religion Karen WRKO twenty -- streets -- 2135. And also hopefully maybe -- now or very soon we will have summer technical issues. Cleared up and you will be able to hear these shows in the week and also get them onto your podcast. The news is up next and until next time made the richest of God's blessings be yours"