Talking Religion for 10-28-07

" Good morning you're about to listen to talking religion thank you for joining us at this delightful hour here on Boston's talk station WRKO. My name is -- on Kashmir and I'm most of talking religion. I'm a member of the united church of Christ and Newton clergy association and presently holds forth as realtor at prudential town and country in Wellesley. Talking religion is a talk show like no other in the Boston area. During this hour you have the voices of our Muslim Jewish and Christian panelists as they share their views and values. At the crossroads where religion politics and culture meet. Here with me today we have father watching kunin Catholic chaplain to students at Brandeis University good morning -- Good morning Iran has to be here thank you can to have you. And doctor Mary -- is sitting across from him executed director of the American Jewish Committee in Boston is mourning mourning Yvonne. The -- And mission -- Hussein is with us and she is Muslim chaplain to students at Tufts University. Mining mining a fun mystery here it's great to have you. Well I think we need to start. Today by expressing our our sorrow and it's all the families who have lost their homes and everything that they've owned in California we are taking this on a Wednesday while the fires are still raging. And the statistic today is that a million people have been displaced hands. I think he set about 1400 homes have been destroyed its it. By the time at this airing until I hope it is anymore but to hope they have an all contained and and so our hearts and our prayers go out to all those who. Are suffering there and all those who have family there because I'm sure that it's. Pretty anxiety producing to wonder what your relatives are going through so we will. Keep examine -- relatives in our hearts and minds. We'll father -- to kunin this being the week of Halloween when ghosts and goblins of sound. We Christians know that not far behind are two days of celebration. All saints day on Friday and all souls on Saturday. Actually thinks there's different and it's Thursday Friday. Sorry about that tell us about the meaning of these observances and what contemporary message is there for Christians today."

" Okay actually the feast of all saints on November the first. Is one of the most ancient of all Christian -- it goes back prom the fifth century we see evidence of a celebrations to issue solution to the pantheon -- which was the shrine built for all of the gods in the Roman time. And then it became a Christian church it was dedicated to all of the markers on the protection Mary. And became sort of if you will a reminder of all the various saints have people who've come before us. And it also seems a some origins in the Celtic lands in Ireland and Scotland. And a Halloween award as you know means -- hollows eve the night before all saints all how close stay on holy Wednesday. And I idea sit there with some witnesses America probably has it has come to no connection to that. The original five people they decorate for Halloween really it's different christmas today. You know eyes there's a big in front of my house is a huge pumpkin them inflates every night -- these machines. And in so I don't have any problems are kind of fun and it's -- of ideas. But the Dr Jim was to recall. Of those who have gone before us remember that in in the Celtic lands at this time of the year with the darkness the beginning of the winter setting in it it almost. The end of nature's cycle that is almost seemed ecological time. And it has been very very ancient tradition to recall the dead. The church divided up sort of all saints they mean those sorts of those in heaven. And also dreaming praying for everyone who is has died that is may be on their way to have minorities and some. Place didn't quite an incline take it yeah that yet so it was a strong sense of purgatory in ancient times it isn't so much into these cherish put. But also -- I love it because it celebrates ordinary Christians it's not the famous saints if you -- Francis of Assisi you're sending nations who found the Jesuits it's for every human person every Christian. Who has gone before us in faith. And it's a reminder that even though we are living now we are connected. To our roots and also to our citizenship in heaven the kind of -- the holy communion of all the saints. And I think it's an opportunity to. You look at our lives in what do we do with our lives mean being a saint doesn't mean -- communion knees every day and praying the rosary constantly. He means doing God's work of justice and how to we do that. And it's kind of reminder that we need to and we also stand on the shoulders of those who come before us. In some parts of the Christian world of family. Until very very big celebration mini -- in Mexico for example it's taken on. Tremendous impact. The day of the dead and did -- Phyllis and everybody goes the cemetery. They decorate to -- a clean them they have picnics there. And they are in communion literally incensed with the dead and that having too many Americans it seems a little strange on the other hand. Many people do find going to cemeteries comforting I'm not a big cemetery for some myself. But I do occasionally visit my parents screens they're -- in Arlington cemetery and fortunately or caring for because the government does that. I but I think every human being when used in -- sonar marker in hey you you feel I don't know a connection to the person has gone before us and all saints season kind of a day in Italy and when I lived in this business -- and it's a very basis of holiday. They run special trains and buses from all over the country so -- we can return to their home villages to pray at the grades to clean degrees sort of like. They were memorial day was somewhat in secular Americans term. When in Rome they just flocked to the cemeteries and put flowers sometimes they sit there for hours they just the -- In my share a sandwich is not so much the Mexicans really have a much bigger celebration. And I think all of the ghoulish stuff has developed -- like skeletons ghosts and all this stuff part of it is. The human being joking of death because it is such a hard thing. So we make fun of it to take away that hurt for the difficulty of death and I remember seeing once an Italian graveyard. An inscription written in in in Italy in his cemeteries. Have you about 30 years to clean out all the remains president and his giant -- actuary and they -- use the -- all the time acts. Too many people here would seem foreign to us people guard their cemeteries -- with via great attention. But that's what to do it that was signed a little quotation on time. As once used as once you are so now is once we were. As once you are -- now as as you are now so once where we and because no further the idea a reminder. And the everyone feels that when you visit a cemetery William someday I'm going to be here. And it's almost overnight -- out of here alive I thought of the day is not. Today in the sense that it reaffirms our faith -- life continues after death even though we don't understand the the particulars of that. The imagery of you know people and have them with a white robes of angels is probably. And -- that's of the poetry of religion. But the idea that there is a continuity between from where we come and those who come after cement -- communion I think is a strong. I think that a strong aspect -- personal faith. So that's what we -- Thursday and Friday this coming weekend."

" Well thank you very much explanations very helpful nobody -- for Halloween -- See I -- figure that you know -- this past week the -- Dali lama received the highest civilian honor from President Bush. And as expected the Chinese government was not amused while it would be nice to view these sewing and designer as a devout Christian president becoming devoutly interface in recognizing Adalius Thomas profound spiritual contribution -- his followers in the world. One does wonder whether this might have been a decided political honor rather than a spiritual one. And wondering what the thoughts of the panel's."

" Well I think that for some reason President Bush fell to less likely to honor around. The Dali lama was negative impact and then to acknowledge the massacre of Armenians as genocide how you -- these political impacts. That perhaps is moon you know within the inner circle of his leadership but the as serious as China is over the honoring of the Dali lama -- I'm going to create any kind of political punishment. Either economically -- militarily they have the olympics coming out their that you -- to score -- China will be humiliated and in the case of the Armenians. And the Turkish really have the capacity to to genuinely hurt America and that's what I think -- congressional resolution is simply not going to get a floor."

" You know we're gonna get to them Atlanta I mean you know you're you're making the point though that. You this question is it political or is -- religious sort of thing and -- I think it is a religious recognition of recognition of his spiritual presence in the world. But clearly every award to whomever is given has political and comes from the president as a political overtone. And you know I'm sure they looked at that carefully but felt it can be done without a big -- I thought it was very nice to to do I think that as I read. With the dalai lama is looking for is not so much an independent Tibet -- really hear that spoken. I think he's willing to have sort of a special. Like an autonomous status I don't know the color like Hong Kong that the situation. Whereby he and his son known group could be relocated into that as a spiritual sanctuary. I don't know right now that seems to be too far for China to to accept but it may be -- seem to think. But that could be way of looking at it if he disavows. All the attempts -- the world to make to that independent. And some some guarantee and that. Maybe there would be way too. You find himself back into that I don't know all the -- is that he may be the last time on the -- is they have to I don't know enough about this process but they have to. Select them as some sort of Iran is a revelatory process and young llamas and one has chosen pattern of these said."

" Well I I do know that did to him and the dalai lama's case -- that China had already chosen. Someone but it clearly was not this person is the Tibetan monks had chosen and so there was a lot of phone controversy around that."

" It's interesting on their point has the Vatican is also having a certain. Tension with the government of China over the appointment of bishops and how the Catholic Church works. And I noticed recently. The government of China that the official church approved by the government had recent ordained to a bishops. And a month or so later the Vatican gave its deprivation to it which is usually reverse order -- Vatican has to say first. But the Vatican found a way to say you'll look we can also agreed this even though they have the sort of Hussein and it. And therefore the easing up on some of that tension. And the Vatican is often done that in this Russian Communist countries even in Vietnam for example today. They can't kick the bishop of annoying directly they have to have a committee of due to the government committee. Who might propose three or four priests that they think could be leaders. Out of those three they pick one and then everyone sort of happy it's -- connection to a history -- in the western world. The selection of leaders in -- often determined by nation states and powers to be. So I don't know if that would have more than the dalai lama button. It certainly had a review very had a chance to be in the presence of Don Imus yes I have yeah it's conspiring."

" It is I was fortunate enough actually because of the show when he came to MIT edu is for five years ago I got in as pets and and I sat right in the front -- you know eight feet away from them and yeah is quite even -- really is very charismatic and inspiring and and I just thought it was a real honor to -- then there."

" It was a well known book called the Jew in the Lotus yes -- about -- entourage of Jews some more local Marshal ducks who met with the Dali lama and it was a it was a kind of exploration of the relationship between Judaism and buddhism. I have read it even though I know some of the principles of -- something interest into."

" For instance music and commissioner Yves saint I was stunned to find out from the Muslim public affairs cancel this past that this past week was. Islamic fascism awareness week. A week devoted to speakers on college campuses including the likes of Ian Coulter Daniel pipes Dennis Prager. And Sean -- does he notable events. Apparently is the brainchild was the brainchild of David Horowitz who has a writer and political commentator leaning on the conservative side shall we say he called upon about a 140 plus campuses for freedom of speech to speak out against the Muslim regimes. That mystery Muslim women and also sought to show the world that bush was right on target to invade Iraq. And even went so far to say that Islamic is worse for the world than global warming kind Saturday saying what has other thoughts are however that the question is. How many campuses allowed islam -- fascism awareness week to happen. I don't know if it happened and brandeis and -- and what effect fisheries and Hussein have you heard that this event has had an and I guess for the general panel is is this any different than Columbia University inviting Ahmadinejad to speak."

" Com -- fascism -- just that the name method as -- out there's no such word as a -- map and fascism to put islam Islamic fascists and together it's almost an oxymoron and because the whole tenant of islam is. I'm the individual relationship with god fascism is uniting a whole you know country the or many countries lobbying against a certain element says that they named -- alienates I would say many Muslims rather than include that and because. And let's say that what their David Horowitz and and and and speakers. What they're committed to get the atrocities for women in many Muslim countries yep that's bad Islamist she had is that are constant destruction. Yep that's bad but when we look at the over a Muslim population of one point four billion Muslims were looking at less than 1% that's continents. And I'm just wondering if governments of these different countries in the United States government can't deal with this population. I don't know how conversations on campuses will be able to deal with the conversations so. The appearance has been more and negative slant to what's Muslims and islam rather than really building unity. And it's almost like think's going up hate and fear at Tufts University Wednesday October 24 Daniels Daniel pipes as the speaker I I was still he was supposed to be -- northeast and for whatever reason with the extensive they don't want him to speak so is now he's at tufts. There's only one organization and it talks called the primary source that is hosting this event the other organizations were inflated. But denied to it to be part of the -- fascism week however Daniel pipes. Came to tufts and the ramifications has yet to be seen this coming week on on the fallout a lot of other campuses and Georgetown for example sadness and not going to allow any of the speakers come on. I think -- it's a very strong -- Middle Eastern studies department and they to correct if it. Initially when this first came about they were quoting about 200 campuses across. The United States and then the recent is like may -- 140 I think those numbers -- really inflated and I think it's going to be last it will be interesting to see. -- some nation -- campuses some really what happens in did could come from it or or harm come from. -- so I. Just to name a slum of fascism it's not inclusive on the other in 1990% Muslims. We could've picked a different name in all of us would have lobbied. Against these regimes that are treating mistreating women in war on propagating tires and but just from the past history -- of many of the speakers and cold again upon apes and to our -- They've had negative things to say about -- on to say about Muslims but at the same time -- holding. Freedom of speech as those very important and I think that's also important because who's to say any of the other groups would also want to have the freedom of speech respected. Mom but can be in the light of the way the world is today and we try to work. And be more inclusive process -- exclusive."

" they -- Brandon he's -- now and it's the flyers about the event. But them again I think it's skewed as you -- in the title gives us they're prejudiced view. And especially -- this past. Couple of weeks it was a wonderful statement from the Muslim leadership all around the world I think 138 scholars and two Christian community you know who -- the -- had no idea but I mean thinking lighting of the plan that. This is from serious and scholars and leaders of the Muslim community. It doesn't fit the notion Islamic fascism. Yeah I mean there are Muslims who are fascists who who do bad things are Christians who blow up buildings still -- some of the right wing. White supremacist groups that we find are largely Christian based. They -- blacks -- Oklahoma City you know so -- I can find within the Christian religion. Taxes and people who who very bad things in the name of Christ as you can in the Muslim religion but overall lieutenants of our faiths -- not -- not important to hold that the tunis."

" the danger of this kind of forum is that people who aren't. Familiarly you know what's the Islamic community will extrapolate the extreme perception to all Muslims and there are people who are doing that islam by definition is fascist state and that its restrictive of the rights of women and men. It's aggressive it's militants and always has been and I princes. No we Jews could equally upset if there's a conference with the title is really apartheid's state to this as upset as you worry about Islamic fascism which is a totally inappropriate. Title that's how upset we get with this perception of Israel -- an apartheid's state and so. This doesn't bring anybody together all this does unites the extremists. And the danger is assuring that if people start to perceive islam you know and these ugly extremist terms. It's very hard to convince them that it's really representing only a small percentage of the Islamic population that's the problem that you know sensitive and liberal people in the community Europe against because of perception is there you know. The cover of Newsweek magazine justice last week this is what's the most dangerous country on earth it's not Iraq it's Pakistan. And on the cover of -- you see -- screaming faces you know of furious angry youth. And scary and these these these images in the news of mobs of Muslims protesting the cartoons and protesting -- any insult you know to my house like -- to their face. And these perceptions travel around the world instantaneously and they have huge impact on the way people think and -- So is very dangerous he can't suppress its UK because then you're accused of censorship in your accused. The only way you can suppress any free speech in this country as we all know is if there is a clear and present danger of violence. And if that can't be proven and Supreme Court traditionally has ruled out."

" Interesting that this group has chosen college students now and and my my hunches is because college students are more impressionable have less life experience there you know they're thinking process Caesar are still being formulated and and it's very edict to -- to catch them if you will and I I just did almost sounds like -- campus crusade you know"

" but you'd think that all of this would be countered on -- college campus by a reasonable objective academic. Voices in courses. I'm I haven't been on the campus quite frankly. I just I used to be an academic and I always despised extremists. It was despise them any kind of total inclusiveness not give me an example I was teaching years ago it Gettysburg College in Pennsylvania. As during the height of the Vietnam War. I was vehemently opposed the Vietnam War. And I would demonstrate -- you know never violent but I would demonstrate. But Gettysburg College called a faculty meeting and -- gonna take a vote. -- to have Gettysburg College as an institution declare itself opposed to Vietnamese war. My foot that was bizarre and and ridiculous. How -- cop which campus happened at college institution take a all inclusive political stallions. You certainly have faculty members who were supportive of the war particularly people from former Communist -- I -- from Communist countries in the east Eastern Europe. I thought it was a wrong wrong so. We should look to the college campus as a hotbed of intellectual dynamic and stimulating for its in clashing ideas and driving toward I objective truth and that's not happening and what really intro. Countries is its entry."

" Yeah at at tufts there the one purpose of particular -- he is against the Warren brought Haiti's history professor recipients aliens. And it teaches about fascism and he's been very instrumental in writing editorials the -- tough -- the and then in also. Com and rolling up their professes to have that account to voice to. I'm Daniel pipes and I feel he's been very successful in doing that along with myself the other -- And different organizations. But I think what's what's been happening post 9/11 especially the Muslim population on campus. They say are still afraid the students were looking 18 year old to 21 -- still young. They're afraid they just want to go to -- do well on schooling get into grad school with Napster train more fine and good job. And they are minority group on campus and it takes a lot. For them to bildt's coalition with other organizations. And what I found this in the traffic when there I was able to do that as the adult supervision for the students. To help build coalition with these different professors and different organizations so I think the mere fact that Daniel pipes is allowed to come to campus the -- opposing voices there. But that that is that and hoping it will be healthy dialogue but again com. Wouldn't it of being real neat if Islamic fascism awareness week would -- had a different name. Still targeting and misrepresentation of women most women at the terrorists to have a more inclusive conversation ground movement marginalized."

" I certainly agree again I don't know what's going you use your on the campus -- Walter and century you're on the campus I I'm not but I was on the campus as a professor. And it pains me to think that is not what's happened. The -- this drive this frantic trying to objectivity and equilibrium in terms of truth."

" We passed the halfway point and I just want to reintroduce our. Speakers our panelists in case you come in late. I just heard the voice of doctor Larry Lowenthal executive director of the American Jewish Committee and Boston. You've heard from is sure Rita Hussein as a Muslim chaplain to students at tufts university. And from father want to -- Catholic chaplain to students at brandeis university and my name is revenue on Kashmir as host doctor there are about seems that the Armenian issue namely the move to declare that the Turkish government nearly 20 century tried to exterminate the Armenian people's. And managed to kill at least one point five million. Is proving to be a horrendous dilemma for being for United States Jews and it just doesn't seem to be -- way the New York Times quoted -- juices saying. If you deny and deny -- genocide that you denied all of genocide it's. And since Turkey is not amused and since Turkey is one of Israel's allies I suppose it's a question of who's going to be so -- in the face. -- I know that many Jews are furious with Abram Abraham foxman the anti defamation league's national director. Because he's saying that the genocide might not have happened. Which son equate winds I ran his Ahmadinejad saying that the Holocaust never happened. So doctor or -- I know that the American Jewish Committee. Opposes the resolution in congress arguing that is not the best way to persuade the Turkish government to examine their past. And that very around may be but what I'm wondering is. What does the American Jewish Committee saying is the best way."

" Well first shall have to correct something Abe foxman never deny it is that a terrific massacre occurred. Against the Armenian people and not everybody even the Turks account says. -- Turks are not denying it happened it happened. What they're denying is that it was a systematic mass article governmental decision in the way that Hitler made -- decision to weapon -- on -- And they claim that this was an horrific massacre during the a time of unspeakable people. -- people was starving to death and in the Turkish community as well listen the Armenian and Kurdish communities. It was a mess it was during war the Armenians were perceived as fifth columnists in league with the Russians who were also attacking Armenian. The fundamental so please a fox and thank you -- and he did finally under great pressure admit that it unwritten rule all the studies and we have to talk to all the experts. And there's no escaping the fact that what happened sodium them you Armenians at the hands of the -- was tantamount to. Two genocide even the use of the word tantamount was very frustrating to the Iranians I'm gonna very awkward position because it was quite frankly as you pointed out at the American Jewish committee's positions almost exactly that. -- the anti defamation -- And one has to be honest here in -- that this is an example where real politics trumps a moral stance. And this has been hidden for years. This'll undercover as sort of -- chafee years we were afraid to say the public. That we fear the impact of Turkish -- Not only in its relation strategic relationship with -- Israel but certainly -- strategic relationship with the United States. And now it's all on the open. And now foxman notice in the recent days he's gotten bolder. In print and on public venues. To stating clearly and look this is really a question of real politics the sports very painful hurtful language but. The consequences of driving this forward are gonna be cataclysmic a Turkey has the power. To literally ugly and almost overnight cripple America's efforts in Iraq -- whether you soon approve of the war support the war not. We cannot afford to have our troops endangered by the cutting off from 95% and there are other major equipment through Turkish bases Turkey is the only friend that Israel has not part of the world -- only moderate Muslim country that we've we know of were."

" Court in this terrible terrible bind and it goes into the much larger issue of national psyche which I think we've talked about before on the program. There -- certain national psyches that are so sensitive to any challenge to a certain missiles. That all hell breaks lose when that challenge occurrence Turkey with the Armenians Poland's with with food its whole relationship with the Jews during World War II before and after. Israel with any thought to any hints that what happened to. The the Arabs at least in the Arabs perception was unlocked by Ian Kennedy was safe. So we have to acknowledge it is to own the catastrophe with the or the Palestinians in their minds suffered wasn't into their own terms catastrophe of the Israeli -- Let's acknowledged that. You know -- they perceive what happened to them it was awful it's terrible in their mind it was a catastrophe to us it was the war of independence. That's the missiles so I partake of that some Jewish but I can understand Palestinian. Proceeding that would happen to him and his people was a -- What are we don't rental office. And we and we will talk in religion here was talking religion and strange thing challenge weird does weird you cross the line. Between a religious commitment towards truth of morality and the acknowledgment of of history. And our deep concern for the consequences of making that assertion."

" Well it kind of leads me to a a larger issue home bringing it home a little more I'm his seems to me that the United States is. Very quick two try to make other countries and I take a look. In the Mir and -- his command says it as a way of work avoidance because. We don't want to -- talking about -- in Austin and everything in this country. We we don't talk about the genocide as a native Americans. Not -- sit numbing SC yeah we celebrate thanksgiving it's a day of mourning for them. And nobody wants a deal is it. Now I was just down in in Washington DC visiting my daughter at George Washington university in -- class and science attack. And I'd had been wanting to go to the native American Museum. So I went hand. And they they would if they they didn't have they pointed out atrocities now they did it in a much more. Sort of very gentle gracious way I think. And when you when you go to the Holocaust you you really. You know you gotta come mountain that the you know -- you may you have to you have to Sunderland ethic and a little."

" Saudi or hang onto your friend brad had an -- and Bob Bullocks arms crying that there at their farm or. I was a combination of yes stay here with the atrocities but here's the beauty of of what our our traditions and and everything are and their lost a lot of them are loss and you feel the tragic idea you really feel the tragedy. But yet we we. We don't want to wait minutes and that. We did try to exterminate them we did bring in blankets that had smallpox there were decided efforts to eliminate these people and I think it was a methodical way the government was operating you don't just. I don't know how much more methodical planting small -- and blankets you know can be. So we have. We have our own denial I mean in this country"

" I'm not sure it's denial is on my senses and I -- I'm blues is guilty as the next person. My sense is that this history of the treatment of the native Americans. Is simply has not been absorbed it has not been is things denial so much as ignorance. I think it personally the United States has been exemplary. In its confrontation with the with the ugliness of its past we don't deny the horror of horrors of slavery. President Clinton publicly and historically apologize for the detention of Japanese in concentration camps during World War II. Now we have come to terms with Vietnam it we have not eradicated the horrors of Vietnam we've grappled with him come to terms of them. It's true the holy -- the native American is. Even night I don't have a clear grasp quite frankly of of that historical reality."

" Because it's it's not in the history books yet arrived here right -- and I doubt that there's much more in there now and even in the -- moderate and now I was does that make you little exception you Larry I think you -- argument having dealt with the these various atrocities -- you mentioned Vietnam. I really disagree I don't think we've dealt with Vietnam at all I think Q we have not been able to come to terms of the fact. That we lost the war it's there you can never find an expression used because it's too painful for the American myths that we don't lose wars. And I think that so many Vietnamese Vietnam War veterans for example you know terrible suffering a lot of women country's hospitals street people. In the whole nation itself even leading up to this war in Iraq was fueled this in the new kind world. In subtle deep way of training can make up for Vietnam. There we have a quick fix of victory very easy going there it didn't work. And I think he's partly because we haven't been able to say look we. We lost this war because it was founded on July. And technological superpower which we have in terms of military means cannot over com that would desire of a nation to be free. We were willing to learn from the French we've been I'm willing to learn from the brits in Afghanistan and from the French in Lebanon Syria Hussein's. So I think it's a way we've while we may have done you know talked about some I don't think -- ever grappled with the sufficiently. To the depth of what that did to our psyche. And I agree with the native American thing myself. I mean I can learn a little about losing on older growing up it was the Indians sat with -- pilgrims it was all hunky dory and something went wrong but basically we were -- We brought the truth to these savages type of thing I mean I'm I'm beyond that thinking today and obviously that. I think America does some very seamlessly with who like Clinton did apologize for the same -- I don't think we've ever grappled with slavery sufficiently and I agree to know the depth. How could racism be searched the number one problem in America one of the biggest social -- in north. Can I don't think most white people ever can feel it."

" But whereas for example when I was the Holocaust is an amendment to doc Allen his awful camps. I give concrete gets through I can -- in tears and he emotional hold it has on me. I have never had that exactly the issue of slave for. And -- as an I don't know what I'm even talking to companies as well in advance I think they are thinking about it as a black museum I'll sign in in Washington black history museum. Which I think we do neat because."

" I I I just one. I just -- my point that is a big difference I think between not getting to the very bottom of the impact and implications of the failure in Vietnam. And denying that -- that Vietnam was a torturous scar in the American psyche I think this big difference there we have not denied these -- failures in Vietnam we have not tonight we may not have culled from that failure or that we should have in terms of knowledge and political sophistication the same with the Japanese in the concentration camps we have not tonight an ugly episode it was sanctioned by the Supreme Court by or warrant great liberal slavery we have by no means I thoroughly agree with you cold for that terrific episode my history. Current implications. And impacts on on black people yes race still -- so it's a subtle distinction Walter I'm not disagreeing with you. Emergency -- simpler -- always we are not Turkey when Turkey denying. The systematic extermination at least major portion of local people"

" and away and and to be honest Israel. To come to terms. With certain gritty realities is that occurred you know 194748 which. Benny Morris and other -- and try to point come to terms of these things in order to move on toward a better peaceful future."

" But Israel I noticed for the -- before on the on the show but I notice of food textbooks in many. Israel Israel schools. Were there Palestinians students they are revising the way the independence was described conditions of the for the struggle for independence. She wasn't all just completely pure on one side or the other. And did the did the fleeing many Arabs was was just is that all chose to you have to walk away somewhere. Many of them were actually forced out and the -- in Israel has someone been. You know that doesn't happen but I think today Israel is is doing is beginning to that in their -- west. I understand it they're not changing that in the Israeli textbooks. But I think textbook changes they're convinced they're very hard to make -- noticing if you look at a lot of the in the Muslim countries it's terrible bullying -- one who don't speak about Israel or to."

" always good distance yet. So but they would just a -- appointed that the textbook that was sanctioned by the ministry of education and Israel to be used in Israeli certainly Israeli Arab classrooms simply said. In 1948 war broke out which the Jews refer to. As the war of independence in which the Arabs referred to as I'll knock off a source said. Some simple historical fact and he -- had to choose to -- that is how the Arabs perceive it won't. All hell breaks loose and calls for the resignation of the of that minister of education in just. This is how sensitive it is and I am and on the other side of course students struggling for years to get the Palestinians you know to change certain."

" And totals -- actually wasn't the same thing if you look at the museum in Washington. On aviation I think -- aviation space whatever they have the plane that flew the -- all -- don't elegantly maybe the bombing a freshman sake. And the way that it's going to be described -- museum. There -- I don't people hostage I was -- it was a huge fight them how that would be described in the news was this necessary. And the war was this the world's greatest strategy. How do you describe things and of course a lot of these things depend on who's in power and control history is not just say. Pure thing that's appears misinterpret misinterpret it and how you interpret what would you care to extract from a that. Who the myriad of -- of realities."

" Yeah and I think also in person today how large is your lobby and how how many people do you have to support an event. So it's they've -- and that'll axiom the squeaky wheel gets the oil. In you know going back to the slavery situation I still don't think we really dealt with the way we should because the whole reparations compensation. It's totally denied giving any sort of preparation to them African Americans. If it's not to individuals because it was so many centuries you know a century ago. They give it to institutions the same saying I would say with the palace and his frail situation in the 50s there were commissions to talk about reparations. For the Palestinians and for whatever reason that never came about however for jerk and he Germany pay reparations. To the Jewish community in and I I guess I would say may be the lobbying that the looked. Do we save the nature of the crime deserves X amount. I at a -- I think if we came across -- across the board because the Armenian genocide. -- was horrible the Holocaust was horrible. They're so many genocide it's an Africa today what if the organizations that are lobbying for one genocide could say you know what. Let's just put all the genocide on tennis but just do the number 1200 and I'm sure we'll get that. And then somehow make peace her at least 21 century. We can go forward and say these were songs. Because then we get tied up into the political ramifications but."

" How do you define the wrong for instance every time you mention reparations for the Palestinians the Jews are going to demand reparations to the 850000. Jews who were expelled from Arab countries after 1947850000 their handful of Jews now -- in contemporary Arab countries. Well they're saying we deliberately expel them in things got a little -- into the creation of Israel -- there was no systematic expulsions that you say that's particularly this. The police came to our house and Egypt in Cairo told us you know 48 hours to leave what do you call that. The argument clothes on and on on I was just in Poland. Let me tell yourself the hope that whole issue of property restitution in Poland. Is an explosive issue in the polls go out of their minds CC because he tried to explain. Where in Germany. We were victims. We lost almost 20% of our population and then after losing six million people. We've taken over by the Communists who rule so impressively for 40 years. Now people come towards the property restitution toward. From home. I'm -- gonna talk about the Communists -- the talk about the Nazis. You know it's very difficult. I overheard these I was there with these conversations with the with the woman who was the chief aide to the president of Poland and she got so exasperated with some of the people her group who were very aggressive. In in this issue of property restitution. When I'm going to solve any of this or can say is that he's a painful issues and then. But they have to be addressed and we discussed at least."

" Right and at and I to agree with you a -- the addressing of it. Can be enough for people and they don't want but dollars it's just. You know people say the principle of the matter and so then at least there could be some record. -- history that says one nation took it upon itself to at least examine this to have people coming in. Vietnam and and then say at the end you know thank you very much for thinking about me -- nation as a race as a religion as a group of people. And this is what's recorded today that's it that's a very millions really want is they just want some say. We recognize what happened you off yeah."

" Yeah because and I can get fall for some of the Turks are really afraid of the once they acknowledge. That it was indeed a genocide once they even hints of like that at that acknowledgment there's -- Then two there's demand for reparations at that so that's one. But your point is extremely well taken and in there is far more discussion the point of that. Language and sentiment an acknowledgment no matter how subtle sweet she profound wounds and then maybe allowing the two combatants to move onto more fruitful and creative."

" And I think should happen somewhat in the South African experience US archbishop Tutu that process of truth and reconciliation in question can't make up. For the horrors. But somehow the telling of the truth. And the confrontations sometimes the victims and torturers whatever was helpful to allow people to move on union can't go back and write it totally or some that. It's even the story you find of them. Prisons a quarter were two there were -- in my Japanese and they were tortured it was terrible. But have more recently actually met each other and they're not external. There are sad moments actually they're and his difficult than them -- a lot of anxiety about it but they always turn out to be extremely powerful. On both sides because together and you look back in suit was an awful but you can the human person. Makes connections even with their captors. At times or their torturers a mean. To strange thing when you can confronted -- you know not everyone can do that sometimes the pain is too difficult and you can't just say -- just go back and forgive somebody is abused you. But sometimes in life when you can have that opportunity. It really does help and healing. And you don't even necessarily have to forgive now you can just right because that's a huge issue. Yeah -- gets to Malaysia -- acknowledging it in the opener that's right."

" I'm just to -- curious if we get into that issue what to what the this raging impact might be even short. Of forgiveness from well doctor there on the -- the last word today because that's -- the time that we have. Thank you for joining us this morning for talking religion on Boston's talk station WRK you know. We hope you'll join us again next Sunday at 5 AM as we continue to discuss issues of the day through our respective religious lenses. Thanks the members of our interface panel father Walter kunin Catholic chaplain to students at Brandeis University. Doctor Larry Lowenthal executive director of the American Jewish Committee in Boston. And -- Rita who sane Muslim chaplain to students at tufts university. And thanks -- to Tyler Henderson for his technical assistance and now this is -- on -- extending TU an invitation to comment on today's program. Or to make suggestions for topics you'd like to hear discussed. Write to us attacking religion care of WRK you know 20 -- street -- 2135. Or this crew have not ready for prime time -- can now be heard any time any day by logging on to WRKO dot com. Clicking on programs scheduled. Scroll down to Sunday and then finally click on talking religion hand the station has now joins me 21 century with podcasting. So you can also download for which we're very excited so the news is up next and until the next time. The richest of God's blessings be yours"