Dan Golden

" By the end golden he used to be a reporter for the Boston globe and now he's a reporter for the Wall Street Journal. In. The titled his book is the price of admission how America's ruling class buys its way into league colleges and who gets left outside the gates. The and we don't have a window of a copy of your book but I've been following that since i first heard -- bottom of one that you want to as a guest is this is something that's it irritated me for a long time. And I'm I'm glad you -- a budget finally did it but you know i mean your from your from the globe there a lot of those people at the global who got into the game the ivy leagues -- the very same way you're talking about here aren't there."

" That -- like former costly but this'll did you get involved does this. Well a few years ago when it happened covering education for the journal and you know a -- covering the University of Michigan affirmative action case and it struck me -- you know both sides in the affirmative action debate were kind of. Ignoring the obvious which is it is also kind of affirmative action reference -- children you know -- like him. And. That in -- Michigan at some preferences along those lines that didn't get much attention to i wrote a series of stories about that eventually -- plot of the book."

" What -- what's what's always bothered me as you know that if you're if you're a middle class in you what you would not just white kids but also Asian kids if you're middle class. Asian or white kid. In your on hawk that's the that's the i guess that verb that they use in the in the admissions offices that training you're meeting your unconnected you you have about as much chance of getting into an ivy league college -- matter or no matter how good you war. As you do a good giving a right to the moon."

" I know that that's -- right at me you know heart murder Yale or Princeton you've got to they say level one in ten chance or wrong -- the. But actually the chance to be unconnected -- it's much less because that would intent which you know. One and read it -- alumni child you know much better chance recruited athletes -- a lot of it never got to play you know some of the sport can watch or -- and -- and then."

" I left or football coma well there are there I. Would to schools lot of guys that got at the Harvard for his football players who i think you argue anyone who's around here knows that i -- but true that i don't say they'll see our hockey hockey i know some guys that are Iraqi war but it."

" Note sports most kids have a chance to try those sports by there any good -- what bothers me -- the sports that most kids read him the chance to try to get admissions preference in the college so without -- doubt that some. It's from my book -- what the average SAT scores are for kids to different ethnicity admitted to these schools and you know that the for Asians the SAT score."

" You know which schools are we talking about here -- going to write this stuff matures it will but what schools are terrible."

" But the data specifically at the data for Harvard Yale and Princeton but my book is about ivy league to Stanford Virginia and Notre Dame and it's been -- telling is going to hold true -- from most of them. Which is that the the SAT score for the average Asian kid admitted it's considerably higher than were in the white. Which means -- agents to a higher standard what this one high school in your budget top agents students in New York City and this one girl there and it's actually i think he's in this -- what about 1600 issues ago fifteen something that. Congratulations that's great -- that known no we call it Asian sale I. Didn't get 60 undated good -- so you know because these kids are on these these -- you know that the colleges it's it's kind of like the Jewish quotas that the 1920s --"

" So it is so now what it would be eight do you have the idea actual numbers error for the Asians and whites in the and the alumni the legacy whites in the the blacks and Hispanics."

" I do it there it might block -- off the top of my -- that would say it harper you know the the Asian averages is that get a 1600 -- was between 5050 -- the -- was between 146500 black and Hispanic in the thirteen hundred legacies average about the same as the universe the average as a whole societal maybe Harvard Yale averages fourteen -- they. The legacy averaged about the same that's where these universities say oh we don't give preference to legacies conceded that the overall average built in. The minorities and also the athletes were quite a bit lower so -- is not a legacy probably needs that you know 50 to 585050. For. The -- got -- Jordan rules I."

" Remember the -- Maria I'm sure you remember -- in your newspaper that Ron -- dead at the in my pronounce his name correctly you Wednesday the the guy from who's -- that some of the bilingual programs. And. He he did an -- analysis of the the last names of Harvard students and he said that you know if you really tall one of the talk about affirmative action you should have you -- middle class y eight. Kids Anglo kids because they're the one source seriously under represented at these institutions."

" You. Know that's true in one of the things this is that that's going to get worse it's getting because all the top schools including Harvard. Has announced programs to recruit more more slowly -- it you know because they're reacting to criticism like you know people like me so they're going out and in trying to say you know we're eliminating all -- or stamped its -- under 60 and so on but they'll never touched -- sacrosanct preferences for the wealthy so the result is that essentially pitting the low income it's against the middle class. You. Know and in the -- each extra -- attempt to date they will take a flat from middle class -- only you know only add that if there's an academic brilliance to an art work."

" What -- Dan golden -- a reporter for Wall Street Journal title of his new book is the price of admission how America's ruling class -- its way into elite colleges and who gets left outside the gates. But you know this is kind of like the dirty little secret though is an advance i mean -- I'm sure you'll see are you getting any bad vibes from from the beautiful people about this book."

" Opportunity you know the colleges you know a it was there there vehicle with the stench in the book -- stories the journal about this got a lot of flak -- you know that the prep -- let you know libraries do Reese urged that the colleges that it you know written letters to the journal complain about me -- you know persona --"

" What. You you know power at all but everybody knows it's true everybody who's been who's gone to prep school so most. Who knows people indie beautiful people precincts knows that this stuff goes on."

" They do openly like -- say it's it's kind of that dirty little secret in the perpetuate a whole series of it's in back channels to -- keep people from knowing about it like for example Harvard has been seen at least where after you know the prep school as it closed for the vehicles for the summer you know they've got -- on the waiting list were connected and they quietly let them -- You. Know you can get into Harvard he you don't start to -- to these -- the."

" Read all the selling new thing to me I'm a model of this."

" have 40 or 50 kids every year on this list in these kids are mostly alumni children most of the children dollars. Have a very big donors -- so they'll today."

" Anybody -- burger. Higher where that would bristles burgers ago."

" With a folk artists tend to go to do and i have -- in my book about this this was from a long time ago and in the 80s that one of the -- heavily. Got to do private school as a kind you know development admit we like to take -- ellsberg that would be helpful i think."

" I. Don't patchwork that the Raleigh times when the newspaper that's now out of business that he go to duke bench."

" I don't policy that this was in the the quite a few of the particularly in recent years it was so what happened it was figured -- at times been featured on the cover the magazine historical hot colleges that they -- it to campuses but they do checked out what -- So people that they figured that this was because this is payback for admitting the Salzburg girls I've researched the it turns out that the. If it was like."

" And handed him -- coed press. Hold hold on if you want to talk about this -- get on board right now we're within golden the author of the price of admission among car."

" One 877469432 to our guest is the end golden he's a reporter for the. Wall Street Journal and formally a reporter for the Boston globe he's got a new book out you can order right up our web site called the price of -- how America's ruling class buys its way into."

" League colleges and who gets left outside. The gates. And -- i didn't know how many people on board want to call in about this i you know i thought that it's an interesting topic but -- how many people want to what we have full lines here so people -- interest in a mess and. We'll we'll we'll take so -- what -- some cause i just want to ask you one thing before before go to old video phone lines. And. You you know it's always bugged me that there are people like outlook for just to pick one immigrant and of. You -- all he's for affirmative action in all yes yes yes some everyone has the pay that price for a all these these centuries of oppression etcetera etcetera. Well knowing of course that he could just make a phone call and get his son in the Harvard just is probably a phone call was made to get him into Harvard. And -- i i noticed that his son enough figures in in your book is well."

" Yet he does it I tried very hard to these sort of nonpartisan the people would accuse me carrying water street."

" I. Don't. Know i know i don't I mean i just it could be a Republican I'll tell you Republican story after this but ample."

" My introduction i -- Al Gore and Bill Frist you know both you know from Tennessee and -- and each one has or at Harvard in. Frist to Princeton it's at a. Very high level of success off for al Gore's it's went to Harvard that the youngest one on a top student behavior issues he still gets in. In. The fall of two thousand accords when it's president bill the cops credit -- and Bill Frist three sons oldest to youngest both go to Princeton oldest again. Not in the top 20% has prep school for instinct is low academic ranking but -- in both cases the father Frist former trustees Princeton or was former overseer Harvard respect him a lot of money to Princeton in losses in both cases whether Republican democratic you know in the and we are connected to either side machine to use these. Preferences in a way you know i almost claim that the colleges for inviting abuse more than they do that the spam because you know parents -- the objectives in Africa responsibility cracked."

" It just it always irritates me those -- when it again it's mainly liberal Democrat but to a lesser degree Republicans as well are willing to throw while white and Asian kids under the bus here. You. Know well well they're they're they're pulling all the strings to get their little borrowings and it's just an issue so hypocritical you know the guy with the prep school with a guy i am i going to mention his name because his. His brother is involved in a tight race for reelection to the US senate. But his father was the governor of a small New England states at -- time and this guy that was in the i think the bottom the early give good SA t.s but he was in the bottom third of the class well guess what -- he got into Harvard. What a -- so what do --"

" We don't -- interesting twist on the political aspect that it has that touched on much about my book that i that i talked about is that you know nowadays congressmen and senators to so much you're marking if they you're market -- sabres a particular university guess where their kids than. You. Know others to sort of like quid pro quo there you get us funding for an two laboratory i think we'll find -- for -- kids are fresh."

" Now again i don't have the book in front of me -- but is that you have you got if you do you name names on by the year marking it."

" I do name some names -- that you know i don't have quite the egregious nature of some of the other -- they have people quoted as saying it happens and and various. Senators have done alot to Princeton in particular and then Christopher -- i think he'd had a lot to Princeton and where does -- Us."

" How shocked we are especially here in New England where where so many of us have receive give up but up close and personal law for all our lives."

" So we believe it is a lot of chief of staff. Congressmen and senators that one of their jobs to makers make called for the college say you know -- pushing for you on this bill equally appreciated."

" Also -- of and of course that gives them plausible -- nine ability doesn't -- okay let's take some calls here within golden the author of the price of admission how America's ruling class buys its way into elite colleges and who gets left outside the gates. Debby your next with Howie -- Indian Goldman go ahead --"

" Hi how long time many kinds mystical thing that i appeal i question about MIT with missiles -- the continual I. Have a brother that was accepted my team in an effort that in that and we have by no means connected to the Arab forum we as well -- economic economic let it go and -- carries sister how difficult it was indicated he keeps his personal nation coasted -- so. Well i was. Say."

" MIT on the continue destroyed decide at those schools that. More emphasized merit because it doesn't have a lot of -- courts as a program burtless operable it's but it's not all the ways that specter it does -- you know -- minutes to get India connections but not as egregiously is the -- that the -- school in the country in the Spain by the way is count tax from my -- tiny you know left freshman class. It only has difficult courses and everybody in the appears to be admitted on earth and very few politicians celebrities and -- six."

" Well -- the more you get that the closer you get the pure science the tougher it is to war to BS your way through mean there aren't any you know there aren't any real affirmative action courses for legacies aura of minorities -- that mean there's no. If you're a physics class or pure math you know you're you just did you you can't fake it."

" That's right that's a lot less wiggle room also Celtic has an interesting admissions process with heavily involved with faculty you know most schools it's for special admissions that we really can't tell -- great prospect of physics and who is you know that there admissions office about physics PH d.s. It at cal tech -- physics phd professors of the ones deciding who had a physics students getting -- tax so they're just looking at emeritus science project and not looking at the you know the size of the check."

" Thanks Michael thanks for the call that we barely have won once briefly which has. The interesting thing there is the Celtic is still able to raise money have a sizable down you know the the ideally in the other league colleges the practice these preferences they say. Okay we know there aren't careful we have to do with to raise money we don't lady in the children Arctic donors are alumni who's going to pay for the faculty salaries in the scholarships in the laboratory -- cal tech is able to get money to fund wonderful science programs without prostituting its admissions."

" What if if they have set asides for black and Hispanics why can't they have set a sights for a white nations. Middle class students."

" In. The neck if you eliminate the last trace the men are right in just liberal for everybody."

" Well i mean it's -- your singling out two groups in society to for a for a real beating here."

" And I -- have to prep the privileges those privileged to extend beyond just these legacies because now there's all these development mr. cultural of the -- payments aren't alumni in -- that i mention i helped appoint to the athletes of the in the sport's most people don't play -- there's another group which is the children faculty and top the ministry as they get that they admissions preference to and most of them are making good money and also are well educated to duplicate that read damage. Why it is you know the the son or daughter the Vice President for fund raising or -- chairmen the history department -- and they -- it as well."

" It seems like you're gonna need either to be fair to use that that word -- you either have to have set asides for everybody are set asides for nobody. We -- to think they -- i mean i don't talking about a perfect."

" You could make you know i try. In my book not two."

" To tackle the issue of affirmative action to directly but i say that. It. Has a little more justification affirmative action for the rich and basically these colleges should be in the business admitting the students or -- the greatest achievement -- the greatest potential -- both. Now it's it's race or economic poverty or race. Gets in the way of its. Displaying that potential realizing that achievement those kids should probably get an equal footing when they get a chance to display the potential but there's no such barriers in the way the -- rich kids and their parents give tutoring and and test prep and travel and all kinds of other accommodations so that the very police station they should be doing at least as well or better than everybody you know --"

" should know lower middle class white kids have the same advantages as Hispanic for instance shouldn't shouldn't the Chinese American have the same advantages I -- the same opportunities as a black person."

" Well in in my view i think -- you know any preference given that we should be given primarily to sort of economics because i think you know poverty. Is the biggest barrier in the sense that. You. Know in upper class African American students probably bases. Less barriers snow white -- from housing project to so this is the static the idea of giving preference socio economically. But. It you know it if there are cases where -- there than than i think that there are active preferences it's okay."

" Bury your next with how we Kearns Dan -- author of the price of admission go ahead --"

" I i ile I I'm here Eric the great socialist state of Vermont yes and i i disagree where nine out of ten things that you would that you agree on however i buy new in music. And quite entertaining thank you. And we guard -- means. So well you know i mean everybody knows that we don't you know -- of democracy like sit in chair. And how you're not quite remember the greatest generation you know you're boomer like i am. Yeah and greatest generation -- greatest generation."

" I. Don't want to say where is it we're talking here about a about it we're talking about discrimination in the ivy league admissions policies here this guy but the did the with -- World War II --"

" What we're talking about that we should have -- how it should be greeted everyone equal opportunity."

" Yes yes it will shown a lot of put it this way -- Al Gore and bill frisk kids shouldn't get in how to my kids of my kids are more qualified. That's."

" Not only that earlier that in the great state of Vermont but we would like to see everyone who wants to go to college go to power. One -- or not."

" Well they very commodity kid yourself they can go to college it's just that they'll have to go to may -- due to the community college for awhile. Hold on then we'll do one more segment we come back I'm now -- car."

" Yeah. One 877469432 to win this one more segment is the end golden -- reporter for the Wall Street Journal he's got a new book out very interesting. Study and the price of admission how America's ruling class buys its way into will be colleges and who gets left outside the gates and you can order write off of our website at Howard -- dot com. John g says so what's new this applies in every area of American life -- that the differences John that the ivy league colleges tell us that there are on the level. That. We that we can trust them because they're not like the others but the reality is that they they are running the same kind of operation as everybody else money talks BS walks and there there he there -- they they. Walk a very different very differently from the game they talk and it's very irritating and I'm glad to see someone's finally calling them on i don't know what what good it -- though -- do you think do you think good things will ever change --"

" Well i don't know of change that maybe it well this. Periodic efforts to restrict or eliminate legacy preference you know they they never seem to get anywhere -- navy missiles start to talk again and accomplish little but it changed you know it's it's it's funny actually -- oh well don't legacy congress Senator Kennedy actually let the last fight to track. Preference. And he didn't eat -- totally push with any success but he did it it's some personal it's -- political risk in the you know college -- a -- support it is in any broke with the colleges on this for the temporarily and and the -- disappeared."

" what does that say about the older -- the this current coming generation of Kennedys that people like Patrick patches said the go to province collagen Joe. Joe went to was -- umass Boston basically -- one of these life degrees they couldn't they couldn't get near Harvard even with the ultimate legacy. You'd want to touch that -- i don't know -- could only speculate on academic critics who. Going from what is it acts that are hand over when the case of up patches -- was to Providence College that doesn't happen very often i don't think let's take some more calls for the and golden Paul you're next with how we car Indian Goldman author of the price of admission go ahead Paul."

" I know you've been question is this is there although level of income under which way kids -- advantaged -- missions and if there or -- that level what can they do an advance the groom themselves to appeal would -- performance."

" The question i don't know exactly -- the dollar level under which there -- damaged they -- it said it dollar all of 60000 dollars definitely come under which you don't have to pay. Any tuition. But how much of -- advantage those kids get in the admissions process i don't think it would really be -- grade."

" What about what kind of white -- bluntly more bluntly the appalled at how what can a white current Asian kid. Who's not connected who just happens to be very talented due to get -- not."

" Much not much i think you know it they're going to get you masks they're young and up I'd start grooming him for for sports that are not widely used it since Cecil elephant is it's weird that it really doesn't wouldn't do. Do that but I'd say you know yours you know -- title nine is huge advantage in so -- attitude wait squash ride horses the problem was -- its."

" I. Don't. Know it's a good game but there are at Stanford for example try to comply with title nine this past -- so you know what sport to initiate watch they don't they don't start women's wrestling. And i don't but it is difficult to really give useful advice -- make the best he can say is that the the privately to not the only place to get a good college education and -- through the best."

" Unlike say the incident -- and that's just -- variation of separate but equal."

" Well it is not a lot of consolation. Also you know push for political change."

" I need I've you know we we we talked about this for a long time -- you do you go to the do you think the editors of the globe on the New York Times are going to have a look so pathetically on this amid again you don't want to say about the. These these these people lot of these people in the in the media gamer legacies of one former another."

" Let's -- senate it's a it's a bipartisan nations Democrat Republican it's albeit -- it's. Hollywood it's Washington's New York all people you know wealth and privilege they they quietly behind the scenes used their connections."

" Like going to the brown i know people like the resendiz like couldn't afford to go to brown i -- so i didn't go with who UNC which was not a bad school to -- to obviously. But that tell us about what kind of people brow mistaken these days."

" over the years has gotten various great reputation for taking the children Hollywood celebrity's starting. Well -- of course JFK jr. was not exactly Hollywood celebrity's kind of if they might as well despite -- like you know they've they've it is Kevin Costner -- did the go dusted off. Is considering and and."

" On eleven with a few Amy Carter's years in jail for the shareholders are --"

" Add -- in my book -- in the look at how they would minutes the sign of Michael ovitz who was particularly the agent is particularly important because they -- whole bunch of -- and they lowered -- quite --"

" This is the guy who walked away from Disney with one 150 million bucks yeah."

" And so round was eager not just for his money but because celebrities in Hollywood don't let it out to work for the disability and other products there ought to be tracked why at the. You. Know higher profile and so they took ovitz is it -- do a lot of dissension in the admissions office oh the nation's potential -- in our standards to date. You. Know ultimately compromise where -- except -- special students to it to aspirin but ovitz. That has posted numbers that the you know host the conversation Martins -- on his daughter trip. My my book goes and so that the mutually beneficial relationship between its."

" Facial called Paul Richard you're next with how we -- Dan -- author of the price of admission go ahead Richard."

" Yeah again excellent idea for a book i think it's a great way to indicate the rich get richer -- the -- and four. My question is I and i need to do it crests the of military academies now have and the reason i ask is because. In. The early 90s USA today we have servant with a survey about colleges and the coast guard academy people was only accepting one and i -- applicants and even Harvard and you weren't --"

" Meeting with. Interesting i don't know much about the military academies you know i was interest one -- to -- chapter about how people get in because. It's -- no more than maybe it's their systems work congressman or senator recommends student to reach here you have to be recommended by your congressman of the investigating two true but the may be the airport and the army. It's not true for the Coast Guard and i would but it truth of the merchant Marines i was suggested they were -- demanding and what they might be getting in return political contributions -- I never really had a chance looked into i do think that might the area."

" My -- if nothing else for restored for the Wall Street Journal that's right. My employer -- our thanks for the call Richard Amy you're next with how we car and Dan -- the author of price of admission go ahead in the."

" I. Had i had i think this is such an instant topic and my husband I've been thinking about it because he went to Princeton. And -- kids are predestined preschool but you know we donate as much as we can every year and he's trying to get involved then you know alumni activities and things like that because I. Think it really does make a difference. And you know person in a position to do that but you know -- at the pressure's on now like to have my in my hand it is just going in the kindergarten and he you have to start -- for now it's creepy."

" Male or female him my i had known that the well you're here now don't get your youngest."

" My youngest is is -- Carolina two girls and a boy and so you know -- think christmas has come and -- tracked exactly i think what -- what --"

" But in you can meant that it does make a difference and that sounds like you know from here from you'll read there's -- that's."

" Does. That does that matter is just edit it into Harvard on a field hockey scholars -- Is it just money they have heard they're just being going you know to the the local meet and greets the alumni association does that mean anything."

" That does mean something i don't think it means as much money but -- it's you know it's it's it's -- following the rights strategy against in the. There is to be different in alumni preferences depending on whether the alarm that happens to the -- daughter. That. The colleges like the reason for legacy preference to perpetuate tradition that somehow they care more about tradition that the child that'll give a lot of money that is the child. That'll don't give a lot of -- effect they've been -- study showing that if your child alarmed by it you would need financial aid they're mostly alumni preference. All. Right thanks."

" That's sums up right that's sums up your whole book right there -- descendants."

" Was a professor name David Aaron. Additionally are numbered years ago and so in your case i think you're following the right strategy the only caution i would say is i don't know how rich you are. You. Know small donations may not be that meaningful because as these college -- get bigger and bigger and higher higher prior to the billions and billion beholden to mourn -- donors were giving him huge amounts. And so they may have to to to make spaces while it is really big donors the kids in this although it may be -- and may --"

" She's millionaire's may not be able to by the way and you have to be a multimillionaire these are going to give give till it hurt same me as reverend -- what's thanks for the call bill you're next with how we car and Dan golden the author of the price of admission go ahead bill."

" Always again are on an alternative light of the status quo that is likely to change in the near future. Kids working class weighed heavily. Look. At getting -- in this -- in this country probably best get through. Our school was a smart they can get taken advantage of all the computer programs study programs and getting and so. Hey and apprenticeship program union or otherwise we the idea of heading towards electricians license journeyman plumbers."

" Like me we can't go to horror we can't go to heart we just gotta get used to it."

" Yeah that voting yes colleagues at the vote that they take advantage and make -- a big box nowadays they had electors should -- pop aren't you know decide maybe that that Japan might."

" And i don't notice the quotas that work on the against the Jewish students in the 30s they just forced them into business for themselves right i mean the same thing could happen here of the quotas against whites and Asians."

" At one episode of -- positive kids are not getting the ivy league would commit to -- Maybe they'll go to that accurate we'll make those schools better close the gap -- Johns Hopkins that the Michigan this photo or or you know that the schools is that -- between when word."

" We're out of time did Dan golden the price of admission -- no car"