Talking Religion 9-9-07

" Good morning you're about to listen to talking religion thank you for joining us -- this delightful hour here on Boston's talk station WRKO. My name is -- he died ashen her and I'm the host of talking religion. I'm a member of the united church of Christ and the Newton clergy association and presently hold forth says realtor at prudential town and country in Wellesley. Talking religion as a talk show like no other in the Boston area. During this hour you'll hear the voices of our Muslim Jewish and Christian panelists. As they share their views and values at the crossroads where religion politics and culture meet. Here with me today we have father -- kunin Catholic chaplain to students at brandeis who was I understand -- are often running."

" That's writing on school is up to me. Back to work. And have since dropped on labor itself let's put Tuesday were -- started class system where intuit and thanks to back."

" Grade and we also welcome doctor Mary Lowenthal executive director the American Jewish Committee here in Boston greatly back. Good to see. And mr. -- means seven doc no he is it's from the Islamic institute of Boston where he serves as director of public relations welcome back -- you. Thank you very much amounts normally comptroller Alan Smith's thinking. Well we are facing this week to very very important. Observances in two of our very important religions and one is. This week is it Thursday. Doctor Larry -- wealth. Wednesday is Russia -- at the beginning of the New Year and on that seemed sunset Ramadan begins for you mr. -- so the don't know 113 for September 13 -- Well let's let's talk a little bit doctor -- about Russia China and it's importance in the Jewish faith and what the I know that this service I think begins with the show far these people going to the show for aren't calls people to a certain spiritual discipline I believe between now Russia China Netanyahu's keep toward yet to come. Yeah I guess it's."

" Traditional and so many religions that there be a period of time when. One searches one -- whim goes through a process of spiritual cleansing and irrigation Rosh hashanah literally means sleep in the head of the year -- beginning of the year and it's. The referred to as the days of war. In which every Jewish individual has the opportunity to contemplate the past year -- year to come you know -- more of a confrontation direct confrontation with everything you've done wrong that cheered. You ask forgiveness them and you hope to. Embark on the process of -- flock or. Or that turning assurances. As typical normal the religions as well. I always admire as he rabbis who go through an effect a kind of marathon. It requires enormous spiritual and physical energy to conduct these services which became you know on a large -- used to services and one day. So what's after the cancer rates in effect singing an entire opera performance. So and this it's that 100 years like in christianity I guess even for a highly secular rights Christians they still perhaps will go. To the church on christmas and Easter. For a lot of Jews it's a one time -- the years it. You do a lot of the Seneca -- almost two occasions so it's profoundly important even for reverse if you choose."

" Now it's I just in doing a little reading an accident send. Notice -- I knew this before but I. You know looking handle more closely that there ours are two sets of commandments who won the ten commandments that we usually think of which seem to -- geared more toured. Humans relationships with each other and then there's another set. Dad seemed to be more what god wants us to do. To be in relationship in covenant with god. And I think passover isn't there. But I don't recall reading about. The day of atonement for example if in my correct on matters."

" Well what's interesting is that you can't really establish that communion with -- god until you have resolve your differences with your fellow humans. So lead the pathway toward god has to wind its way through years into relationships with God's creatures you you can't go directly to god for forgiveness you have to get forgiveness from your fellow human being I just heard Africa where it was was in Poland obviously and somebody was taking and the names. An angel was taking the names of people who love the lord the person who was observing us as human beings grow. Mature much on the floor but it to my fellow human beings. Good enough and the next day the angel came back and said your name -- first imports and stuff that's wonderful story. Wonderful -- That's very true so this -- of fundamental human is Judy's. Certainly amongst the conservative and reform and reconstruction -- nominations and maybe the orthodox but few of us have more direct access to go through ritual. You hear less about ritual and reform movement and you do and to relationship ends."

" Woman -- means senator go okay. What does C. What is. The beginning of Ron -- mean missing do you are there's special -- is that began this month long observation and tell us about. What it means to Moslems is this the highest holy time. For Muslims"

" it's it's right it is one of the five pillows -- he's one sort and extremely important one which has its atlas -- Between -- 30 days -- an amendment calendar the main things up fast and so you costs you don't. Agreeing from sunrise to sunset four -- the -- you can teach in charitable. Actions you worry that a certain special friends that I held a night every night yet every night -- the people. Broken -- fast and they they pre long please quote we so would that be at home is you can do we that's home by it as we've most the most them what is it he's preferred if you do we in the congregation. So you break your fast. With your family and then go to the months that score you break your fast the most. Those who goes in Muslim countries generally is always a mosque nearby. So sometimes you break your fast which -- his in some cases you -- you eat. And which is what the prophet did and drinks milk and -- pretty the evening play. And then after that you can -- little bit more and go to the mosque full that we ruling faults that it is very trying time -- the courage mom's because after asking the they have to stand in front of the congregation and recited verses of the Kwan these for his last as long as two I was planning on your feet and remembering. And then at least I can do during his time do rewards that -- because of the acts -- you do during Ramadan do awards multiplies youthful. So charitable organs actions visit and families being who refraining from doing anything that is. In fact Ramadan he's in training and it it's -- remembrance. It should be. For the rest of the it is so does somebody's writing problem cut them from me while I'm driving -- Doing what to you know more playing on that aren't there. Attacking -- so it is really is special period of the rewards I mean we read the quote most people to read all decorum during that time and reflect on its -- And more important he's trying to apply it to its eyes the time goes on."

" Now is not done as Russia -- the beginning of the New Year for Muslims no no it's not know. But it is certainly easy -- period way you -- new. You safe way you know who"

" you come -- energize. In fact after Amanda a lot of people you will see people you've never -- in the mosque the doing a much done their weekly and they'll come to try to pray. And immediately you remember you know Moscow the last Friday before -- he mumbled that the -- here today. I also want you to be here it was a moment damage supposedly I'll say that I am I going eggs now we -- again and it. So it's that in there is also one particular aspect of this where. This is something that the prophet did during the last ten days of from a -- He would retire and it -- in the mosque. And in fact spend the last ten days reflecting reading you you you there is you do with the regular praise you fast but you stay within the mosque. And some people do that -- him and a lot of people who do -- he'll also denies that the that's their problem vote -- what people do during Ramadan as well."

" Now I'm not know that you mention parents Ramadan is a charity and in the past that in recent past have been some issues about the Muslim charities and an issues about people. In particular mosques or maybe even individuals. Saying gosh where do we give our money because we don't want to be associated with something and we don't know what this organization is doing and so what the what it's recommended on a Ramadan there certain charities that -- of past national scrutiny. Whereas -- it's communicated that these are fine and you're not going to get into terrible trouble with the government that sort of thing."

" facility that need to find charity because sometimes we credit only in material terms. But he charity can be as simple as smiling to someone. As being kind and gentle well coming to someone. So as -- being something from the road so that somebody else doesn't come in rupture in the tire all of these is charity but coming to a specific issue this is Stephen because none of Muslims because. You will you do you amnesty to an organization and so on the there will be an allegation that that organization has been involved in in funding terrorism. Now some of these are really far -- It in bouts a couple of maybe sometime next week that if somebody from the Justice Department. Was coming to Boston I -- the Treasury Department -- who's been. To talk about 2 disorganization that I am a member of quote bridges to talk of low. What's cherry -- it's total houses seal of approval. That have beaten determine didn't say but we need not send all the money will be students. We have needs here in this country. And and in fact it is strongly commended that we take all of those went -- us so that we can do charitable organizations actions for those way here that may need our help as well."

" Now I I know that say you are director of public relations and an institute I haven't heard -- so I'm wondering if it's relatively new. The Islamic institute of Boston can you tell us a little bit about what this institute is and what its goals aren't. Who -- ten what you do in terms of public relations. The institute who."

" As -- established by doctors in mom -- he that many of the listeners would know yet fears that previously he was that you mom. Of the Islamic center -- New England and army you -- exactly seven years yes so after that. You left the center he funded the Islamic institute of Boston to provide services to the Muslim community us winnings Earth's -- rituals and things of that nature of political into the Moscow and knowing it's not a mosque it's -- is that it's publish he needs some prejudice but that is more. Small squares you can go for it prayer as you know he was recently appointed on the by the president on the commission for international religious freedom. That also takes his time he goes to foreign countries I'm here to -- presenting him sequences and Turkmenistan and trying to look at issues where they pulled by advice to the president with a congress and to the State Department. On issues related to religious freedom and they gore and look at specifically -- And I'm sure he would find it fascinating if he comes to report on someone --"

" Borg and so on it's it's sort of like its social service. Doesn't seem -- he had religious service -- the Muslim community you know does it does it get benefit of our dear president's. Faith we can't that they faith based and then based charity again."

" No no none of these two. This this is not a not yet anyway you know he's just what does this provide the service that we which is not force you to the Muslim community."

" There I had like two. Turned to mr. doctor I'm saying mister concern doctor -- on. You recently returned from from Poland which you referred to a couple of times having been on special mission is fun that you could tell us the groups that you went winds and the purpose hands. What you learned there and and what issues those people and an end in Jews poles and polish Jews there are facing."

" It's it was an extraordinary trip it was sponsored essentially by. An organization called for room for a world dialogue. Which was founded and polish must do -- most difficult languages in the world it's impossible to pronouncement fell it was a wonderful guy is names on injury and I came -- listening. He was a member of the polish parliament and he was very became very concerned about polish Jewish relations. And he found it is this entity which he. Raises money for him essentially the purpose was to explore this very very. Complex relationship between poles and Jews. What I learned. I thought I new products one never knows all the one assumes even about subjects it seemed familiar 80% of all American Jews have polish derivation the -- sent out. My grandfather came from walls. Came to this country who sold the end of the 19 is that Tony the 19 century but. Poland as a nation of about 38 million people. At one time in 1939 with three and a half million Jews three and a half million shoes. They accounted for more than 10% of the population 12% of the population in war so they accounted for maybe 25% of the entire population that's it. There and now. Maybe 8000 registered Jews in the nation -- my. Three million were slaughtered by the Nazis. Leaving about half a million survivors -- some people though. Poland fell into a vicious civil war right after the end of World War II between the Communists and the non Communists. And I'm. The Jews going to court and that crunch with the rise of nationalism as we've seen in so many countries of the world you see a rise and anti semitism Jews. We're not perceived to be polls say we're perceived to be aliens living amidst -- polls tonight come in the mainly associated with Russia or what well. They accuse the Jews were accused the polls. Of being. Involved with the Communists and there were a number of Jewish or bureaucrats in the Communist system -- and Russia. And Soviet Union. I -- been drawn to the left it was just a French revolution because the right always represented anti Jewish sentiment anti Jewish interest the lifts at least 2% of the kind of internationalism in which Jews felt more comfortable. And so there was a vicious civil war in which are Jews were perceived as alien and about 200000 left the country in 1956 there was another outbreak and to cement makers sentiment of the country. And in 1968 third atmosphere of anti semitism broke out and the last remnants of the Jewish population really left but what is amazing -- that. More and more potholes. Are discovering often from deathbed confessions by a grandparent. That they really Jewish. And this feeling in Poland about being Jewish was so sensitive that people hated. They suppressed it they just eradicated and those who chose to stay in the country. And what you're seeing now is as if phenomenon of thousands of people who are suddenly discovering Jewish roots. And then you have this incredible rise in home. Fascination with Jewish culture. On the part of non Jewish poles so we were -- crackle of for three days. And every year in July there is an annual Jewish festival that draws of 30000 people to -- off 98% of whom are non Jewish. And they listen to klezmer music in the English to Yiddish songs and they learn about Jewish history and culture and folklore customs and and -- assists phenomenon that very few people really quite understand it has to do with skilled it has to do it justice innate fascination about her. A powerful component of the polish population. Anyway I mentioned before that they were two marriages that have not yet been reckons very much like the Palestinian Israeli. Conflict you have to entirely different historical narratives. The Jews see the Holocaust. And Poland -- affecting essentially them and they see the polls very often and is and it innately anti -- kind of kind of brutish really. -- believe. Anti semitism. And embedded in the polish cultures and a very strong prejudice on the public issues didn't feel that same planet Germany yeah they're Jews who simply will not -- for manager when in fact it's the weird thing news that. A lot of Jews have could have more open and -- feelings toward Germans in the do toward polls. Because at least the Germans have come to full terms with the horrors that they perpetrated. They -- have struggled with this in life and and Jews respect that in polls have not come to terms of that yet. The -- see themselves as victims -- victims of -- of the Nazi onslaught. And the fact is that three million non Jewish -- was slaughtered by the Nazis. We went to a museum about the Warsaw uprising of 1944 I know about the -- Jewish ghetto uprising in -- in 1943 but it wasn't familiar with the general uprising in Warsaw in 1944 by the home army and and the militia the polish. It was a ferocious struggle which ended with the slaughter of 200000 civilians. And the total obliteration of the city of Mosul. Hitler told his troops. To destroy every -- building in the city wants you wanted it wiped out. And you can't believe what you see in this museum you -- the city with. Those if you saw the pianist you know what -- and yes Adrien Brody and that scene where he emerges from an underground hiding place and looks upon the city of also in total who had just rubble. So really the poll see themselves these heroic stalwart fighters against the most vicious enemy that could ever be imagined. And they forgot about the Jews. Eyesore -- ocean it's 41 years ago. And use it there was no mention of Jewish victims even though 85% of the people killed rations were Jewish no mention the Communist no no the Communists. Internationalized all the victims three -- million and a half citizens of -- and died here -- I want to Bobby aren't Ukraine 85000 citizens of the Soviet Union and -- here -- Bobbie there was no mention of the Jews. So you have these two very I economist narratives they have yet to come together -- hostility bitterness. Competing victim apologies. And there are people like this young former member of the polish parliament toward trying. To bring poles and Jews together in dial up. Get to understand each other and see if we can. Because the fact is to Jews flourished in Poland for 800 years. Why MIA of polish descent because Poland opened its gates the beleaguered Jews who were fleeing the prosecutions of the the crusades they would be slowed by the crusaders. And they fled to the rhineland and Poland can -- should come here we need you we are diverse pluralistic. Open culture and they work for hundreds and hundreds of years. This change essentially 19 century with the rise of fascism and got very -- right in the 1930s. And it's it's a complicated and very painful story but I think what's encouraging is that. There is this revival that you -- of great interest in Jewish culture. There is an estimated 100000 -- of Jewish descent and many of whom are finding their identity and coming back into the community. Whether it'll ever reached the point of Germany's Jewish populations probably unlikely coming back meaning they coming back to live or date coming back some festival are but refuse. So many deathbed confessions the grandparent well again the grandchildren around the death sentence and I can tell you."

" my age you know the similar sort of thing happened in my family although it was not on the death that it was just -- finally. Uncovered the family's secret. And which you know at first to Ireland to believe well you know big embarrassment was we were polish -- growing up in Detroit. -- you know there was a little stigma attached. But then later and I now. Tina this is too serious to just -- came from Poland because in the whole family spoke German. And and then I I discovered through night Alice island research. That mine and grandfather came over first and then my grandmother and her first born. Came over and me listed themselves as he group and out of I'm I'm tools called launch but which was then under Russian hands again you know and so that's. I said now I know of course everybody in the family is practically is dead you know except for refute my cousins Heuer are a little upset by the news. But I'm excited by myself I ages fields liberating. Two to find hit my heritage. And and the little sad at the same time that I lost benefit of growing up in the richness. -- tradition so you know that it's not second nature is citizen."

" Suggesting on that point in. Hold on three weeks ago four -- go the."

" Cardinal archbishop of Paris -- Lucy your -- and down. He effect the president of France was vacationing here in America had to fly back for the funeral. He was born -- mother died in Auschwitz and he became a Christian and Catholic at 13 14. But he he always claimed that he was. He never he never gave up this Judaism him is very very important and working in France this princess. A lot of anti semitism still deep within and he did a lot of work over the years trying to bridge the connections in. He talks of what he did that a memoir of him. When he first went to Auschwitz where his mother his father escaped to -- for someone turned in his mother he and his sister were living in further down south -- escape to -- than the Nazis. But what it was like to go for him to -- and his mother who has suffered a powerful story again the inner conflict between. You know innocent team he became a creation of these he never gave in his own mind never give up his Jewish roots. But"

" she makes me think of this question that I will. What is being Q if you think you're more slim. You converts to pay your Christian convert to islam to remorseful. You know the the Christian and you -- most of them now it appears now I've never you will be be able to feel is it. An ethnic group. Or is -- religious because the cardinal was now Kristen. How can he be Christian and being who the same time you were Christian now how could you be that you. And being Kristen at the same time."

" Doctor Larry alone -- and and yes I'm -- and and a grandmother yes you grandmother was Jewish yes. If if her grandmother was --"

" Then she is Jewish because she gave birth to. A daughter."

" The daughter is automatically Jewish Judy you jewishness is derived from the mother not from the -- Yes I'm Jewish and yeah. -- changes oil and petrol legal dissents as personal as the only in the reconstruction Houston and reformed denominations. And this has led to huge split and I didn't -- it and it is beginning to be an issue isn't because. Some Jewish people as a huge if you're gonna get married to they could be called lock and key issues but. Interestingly the orthodox consider perjury -- orthodox consider -- to Jewish. But the State of Israel through the law of return through Supreme Court decision. Would not consider you Jewish -- cardinals -- let's update now now. I'd have to convert. You have to converts in order to gain citizens of the State of Israel but the orthodox would have no problem as long as your mother was hole perfectly. Jewish which she is of her mother issue. Which your grandmother was yes now when you what when you convert."

" You're no longer considered by the State of Israel to be a member of the Jewish people. You've already consciously chosen to remove years ago. From the fate and destiny of the Jewish people you cannot be. Two and one you cannot be a Christian and -- with the same time there. Again -- orthodox have a different perception but what does it mean to be Jewish one of the great classic questions you know before time. And they can only be answered and I think in terms of people. It's certainly not religion because I would say most Jews are pretty secular. And they made a -- once -- reform rabbis 50% of them didn't even believe in god. It it's not nationhood because we're not all living in Israel it's not to race because there are many many blacks Jews. So it's not raise it's not religion not nation. It's people. And that is maybe a little difficult it's hard to get a hold of what you're saying it but it is powerful. It's very very powerful I have a visceral. Connection to a Jew in Afghanistan. I would be willing even to -- for that Jew in Afghanistan. -- Macedonia or Ethiopia. It doesn't make much sense produce a fat. And it's tribal it's very powerfully tribe knows the feeling that you have something in common. With all of these disparate people from every imaginable country in the face of this earth you are one family. Your brother that your sister. What happened to those people I spent six hours and a chance. A six hour tour by. Associate director of the entire museum when we walked some 408 acre. Compound by the way the Nazis were going to double it. They had plans willing to the 1950s. To exterminate every single you in every countries -- the Concord which doesn't make the Holocaust unique. Rather than when you compare it to. Armenians and Turks did not intend to murder every Armenian on the face of the earth -- did not. The Nazis intended to murder every -- On the face of the year. So you know the classic work and I can I urge people to resistance and really work. Which which confronts this question what does it mean to be -- was written by. A non issue -- also art moved into his great short classic here cool. In English anti semite and Jew in French. -- reflects your own suit against your -- usually. It's a short work it is powerful it causes tremendous arguments amongst Jews they don't like exactly what he's saying. But it's it's really worth three."

" But it's phenomenal issue and one that. Isn't it."

" it's a major dividing point. -- between christianity and Judaism and I don't know except for islam. You you cannot be born a Christian you have to become a Christian you be born to Christian parents you're not a Christian -- you baptized. -- radically different concept and that -- you can if they closed easier for himself personally. Kept his time in his his own deeper connections in Judaism but he. He became a Christian at some point -- is a difference we don't have that sense being born the only thing I'd say we have someone there's nothing that powerful. And finally Catholic world many Catholic people who leave the church -- become Protestant or whatever. Often talk about this that it's very hard to leave catholicism is he your blood they'll say this is something about IQ test."

" The accident as a Protestant pastor having Catholic congregants who. In and gave the you know lots and lots of money lots of time where there every Sunday. And they are there for years and years and that -- so when he indigent church ma'am not ready for this is after they've eaten it."

" Consider not quite the same as a sense of the and that's when like in the weaker so when you keep port comes leave Russia on them especially on keyboard in my experience. Anybody who is an all slightly Jewish of any type with a least. Do something on that today in medical all data with some of them they're going to stop they're going to remember they're going to connect and that's a very powerful. And it's unique feature I don't know if islam has that saves."

" It's in islam in -- ferries so people of your opinion that everybody is known. Islam mean mean meaning submission to call. But even if you were born in an religious tradition. Conversion is it's kinda hard but it social of the professional -- that is no god -- god and Mohammed is his prophet. By saying these will close in meaning it you become much."

" Due to say it again if -- let's say you let's say the Christian I wanted to become a Muslim. Would that would do it like before any mom with a -- ritual."

" You wouldn't do week in the form of -- people who come we have them the mosques here somebody wouldn't comment after the prayer that you mom would see. These a person who wants to take this -- he will get up in front of everybody and repeat those words. And by then he has become and member or to whom you talk about -- action. That connection you also extremely strong we do you grew Afghanistan or wherever wherever you -- us -- people oh you feel -- you know he's a law that create very very wrong bone that transcends ready so it may fit the and and -- just those last words mean there is no god caught. The last two and then that's parties -- Muslims who like Mohammed is the profit of -- feeling."

" That would buying Jews may be this one Montrose you know -- my east and mentally -- Hanoi normally hard hear -- Israel O lord our god the lord is one. We just almost what is this certainly the first model English for the first. Lobbyists that we know of in western culture and that's that one moment during the service you know. Where he works if you keep this rush of unity in the congregation should mine -- use."

" But I Eilat on all New Haven and gone you cause. It's like in unison and even if you don't leave this. That bind you but islam -- you -- you connect to with the why are believers. That's -- doesn't believe that person's not hardly -- Now it doesn't believe in the one -- caller and the message I was that communicated through profit and how does one convert to Judaism is that it. It's very morning whether or gradations the conversion you can be converted by a reform. -- and go through. If somewhat mild process or you can be converted by an orthodox. Process which requires in any case in the mail at least symbolic circumcision plus a rigorous discipline of study which lasts at least a couple of years so the process can be simple or can be very rigorous I don't know -- to reform will do in terms of circumcision but there has been some symbolic ritual that draws -- blood. And Ellison's primeval but -- that's Genesis and religions are primeval something of religions are. Yeah I -- going -- essentially Abraham. Was told my god who."

" Circumcised himself and and Syria what does she see any when a bloody may and you war. -- odd sequence frightens me says yes what a bloody manpower to but this was some kind of communication from god that this is going to either. The procedure that will bind together people."

" and there are I think in today's Jewish world people who use when should be interpreting the scripture. Some would say we'll circumcision was probably a ritual practiced by ancient peoples at some point to become sack relies -- It takes on this that god required -- that it is their long before god and it was understood that way. And some would say today that this this too much emphasis on that ritual making you would you even though that's a key part of -- That circumcision can be looked at in the more spiritual way mean there are some. Parts of Jews the -- will I believe that if you become a -- you do not have to be circumcised nor do you have to have blood taken."

" But we haven't christianity and the symbolic blood. So they we've got we've got that which is binding which binds Christians together -- through communion. Right now we have different interpretations about that but nevertheless that notion of blood is is central."

" How to how is what's entailed in that. No human diseases and -- wine a symbol of blood -- as metaphorical. But I don't know there's anything like that in islam moon just the professional phrases that you've become pizza but circumcision. Muslims are circumcised and yet you know it"

" yeah mostly males. But I am not aware images that you that. And people convert and nobody tells them how to but for because of the nature of islam for hygienic reasons it is easier to be a -- most of them. For males that that were performed on you. -- don't don't do it generally around. Ten years older -- is old yeah that's. The video each country's different heritage that is not prescribe each now some people in fact do we right after the baby's born to a communities in the hospital people have taken it in and sort of immediate into religious ritual where in countries regardless of religion -- competition was its transition. Between China and the food and -- would so such requirements are meaning and happened at certain ages. But it I'm not aware of anything from these guys the question you said you -- Kristen you become one. So what is the ritual. Involved in the wind as it happened in what he. The child is born in dies immediately after that Chinese helpful from Christian parents is that -- Chris and then."

" Well I mean technically it baptism as the ritual that they -- people become creation. Which is a water bath would nighttime in the Catholic perspective -- academy -- secret is well baptism as the key fundamental key. But it happens at different times they're into Asia in the same of the Catholic Church have different times but in this more original phase it was usually for adult people. And they were fully they went into rivers are pools completely under the water up again. And so were ritual marking death and resurrection and rebirth new beginning oh recite prayers -- appears to develop over time a creed. And it's general of the apostles creed develop first and believing god believing in Jesus in the holy spirit. In some churches they can parts of the Protestant world Katherine grow Lotta babies around tennis soon after birth couple months after birth. Some Protestant churches insists only young leader baptism -- wide variety with the key ritual is sort of this. Ritual bath that he will in the water -- other ceremonies are attached to it over time and done a little bit differently depending on the church's split. I think -- years ago it was very strictly interpreted these in the Catholic world if you were not baptized and you couldn't go to heaven. -- all this fear of people that is immediately et cetera. And they were afraid of the babies couldn't go to heaven is all the stock of what these -- limbo where they can be near heaven but they couldn't go in. It has been pretty well totally eliminated is that I think this past this Pope. I recently spoke about it is that's just not accurate if someone dies. Who's now about as we believe god I can embrace anyone without our rituals and we can't hold god hostage to a regional. So and I actually in the Catholic Canon and they ancient tradition. Would you be here we can't acumen which is a fancy -- for getting preparing to become a Christian he was a prostitute several years. And you would study you would journey in gradually attach yourself to the community then you'd be baptized. But if you died while you were account acumen you were considered a Christian because you had already made the commitment. In your heart you -- you actually hadn't had the the ritual baptism."

" These evangelicals I mean they've been getting that. The denominations make stuff that -- to be born again."

" Does that have anything to do it with water ritual now in not a local church are simply opening up. Your soul to Jesus."

" Well let's say in the Baptist tradition it could. It could go a couple of ways."

" if you eat they would have a we've gone altar call and if you felt like got this really calling you you no matter what age you are you would go for a and you would receive the blessing and a few had but let's say you're 12 is -- and got baptized but something happened in your life. And you felt like you say you went down the wrong path and you find yourself at 25 drug addict and you came out of it EU it you would then maybe go forward at one of the altar calls and EU would. Claim yourself to be born again. So purity. Believed in rust right and so it's India and from and from my perspective canning grown up Baptist my left it but there are a lot of good good aspects about it. I think you'd you'd get born. Not just boring and not just wants it to me that's that's the terminology. But I would take it more now on and then Easter death resurrection kind of metaphor we get to those times in our lives. Where maybe with had a major depression we feel like it's Good Friday week have died. Or were on our way to dying and then something happens and we resurrected to -- into new life. Probably evangelicals would call that being born again an and so in my view. We'd like is a trot if you believe life is a process now of it that's another question altogether is in the face development issue it's some people just figured. You know you're born again -- that's gets the Manhattan that's it that's it that's it. I tend to be more about. You know life it's like a little button blossom opens up and EC got in different ways you experience got a different ways your life takes different turns. You may be don't go down a path you wanna go to an and you you try to midcourse correction you define it whatever way you want to define it but it you know so they hate each each group has its own way -- defining what born again means more. Investment for me Easter is always been a very important observance because it reminds me even though I mean I feel that resurrection it says to me every day. My resurrection from wherever I am is possible. Every day it's possible self."

" You know it just it's just a different -- surprising to like in the Jewish tradition when you you -- the passover dinner. It's like you know. Why is it because on this night our ancestors were set free it's like happening again even your own life of its grant renewal he's your deliberations as you know annual. And the evangelical world they used the term a lot mean some there isn't even about as a younger whatever that as the middle of an older. And it may be -- some experience they. They feel this tremendous surge to be committed to Christ in changed their lives around. In evangelical parlance it often -- to a being born again I've accepted Jesus as my savior. More of a conscious. Committed thing -- they may not have felt that exactly when they -- the advertisers the parents have and that has this children. It well --"

" Running out of time mrs. the time we have for today. It was great discussion thank you for -- that are dear to our. Yes Jewish Jewish brothers and sisters and happy New Year and -- Muslim. Brothers and sisters do you say happy Ramadan I don't know when your family an agreement what is coming and great the great soaking -- the -- of Ramadan thank you all that all of you for joining us this morning for talking religion on Boston's talk station WRK you know. We hope that you'll join us again next Sunday at 5 AM as we continue to discuss issues of the day to our respective religious glances. Thanks to the members of interface panel father -- kunin Catholic chaplain to students at Brandeis University. Doctor Larry on top executive director of the American Jewish Committee in Boston. And mr. -- means have a don't go from the Islamic institute Lawson and thanks -- to -- could see for his technical assistance. And now this is -- on Kashmir extending TU an invitation to comment on today's program. Or to make suggestions for topics you'd like to hear discussed write to us attacking religion Karen WRK you know. 20 couldn't -- street Brighton 2135 and for those -- you are wondering what's happening on the Internet. They're trying to get on to podcasting and asked if you've heard a show from two or three weeks ago that's the reason everything's a little bit messed up. But pretty soon we hope it's not going to be on track. So the news is up next and until next time made the richest of God's blessings be yours"