Is Barack Obama an idealist or a ruthless pragmatist?

Todd fiber shell brought to you -- -- capital funding corporation your future finance. Joining us now Daniel played man he is the author of a new book called kill or capture the war on terror. And the soul of the Obama presidency. Daniel thank you for being here on WRKO. It would Q so your bookie is at the center of controversy which I don't think most Americans have I have not gotten a handle on yet. But he's starting to become a major story certainly if you're looking at the Sunday shows over the weekend. A centerpiece of what they're focused on is the revelations coming from inside the White House about how national security is done. And that controversy is leading to accusations that there are illegitimate leaks -- it taking place. In order to drive the political story line for the president's reelection how do you feel about that aspect of the the roll your book is playing do you anticipate this reaction. You know it -- it's awfully hard you know exactly how that people are gonna react -- one thing I will say is that you know where you know a few months away from a presidential election and so. That that and the heat things up a bit and you know an actual security is it is that an issue that's been. Politicized by both sides for quite some time now partly because. In -- you know so much emotion and sometimes the year. So I'm not shocked to. But it I can't say that I was and I would necessarily expecting as -- Okay and what is there for. If if if you have just this time with the American people to convey. The most important message in the book what do you think that is. I I think that that this book is date is a very. Important window in two. How Barack Obama governs. And how we grapple with. I really you know the most important. And and most difficult and some weight issues that he -- to confront. And you know I think if you're trying to decide that -- vote for in in the election you know. The economy obviously -- -- -- that are but but in the at the end of the day what's more important than. And that and our president is able to protect the country and protect its citizens so. -- and so what does what of the books say the book says that that Obama. You know has really grappled. And and struggled with a lot of these issues with some balancing. You know issues of of liberty and security. And he's not terribly ideological on national security you'd think he might have been when he came in. During the campaign because he talked a lot about rolling back the bush Cheney policies but once he assumed the office. And I assume those awesome responsibilities of protect in the country. I think he began to keep things from from different vantage point you get this it's. You know what I think people he has an irony that after each evening and he he really -- -- From the more more aggressive parts of the bush Cheney policies drones is date is a perfect example. Yes drones are something he's used aggressively in your book focuses. Line of the drone war ended the level of detail or at least this is a -- or -- reveal the level of detail. That the president is involved with he's actually scrutinizing every decision correct. Yet at that that I wouldn't -- every decision but every killing decision. When it comes to that the military programs CIA program a little bit different air. -- authorized the program but they don't come to him for in the for approval of individual strikes. But he insisted into the military also has targeted killing program and they use drones aggressively campaign places like Yemen Somalia. He insisted that he be. That the decider essentially on those killings. And you know I think for a number of reasons I think one. You know I think he did feel that he wanted to two in the sort of moral responsibility of those decisions but I think the overriding reason. Was because he was concerned that military action Hathaway has a way of kind of spinning out of control and he was quite concerned. About getting bogged down in places like Yemen and Somalia. You know even the president who was elected in part to it and you know the war -- at 9/11 and down I think he saw the drone program and and and targeted killings as day as an effective way of dealing with the rat. But without putting. American troops on the ground. And also as and and and you know sort of helping them lighten the American footprint in that region. So I think that was his rationale. Dan -- -- is with us his book his killer -- the war on terror and the soul of the Obama presidency so the information you've gotten is from. Inside the White House sources only or did you all do you have X. Oh no -- my my yeah I had cites sources that throughout the -- Security bureaucracy. All through the government. And you know at this let it leak controversy. It's always insisting to me that people and politicians that make certain assumptions about where reporters get their information from. And and that it sort of spoon that did you know that it's given in the months that silver platter. I don't know that other journalists but I gotta say that's not the way it works for me sometimes I wish people would just call me up and tell me. But I have this straight since that law. And do with the old fashioned way and it particularly difficult you know for good reasons on the national security issues. -- -- -- that I'm curious if any of if you got to witness any worry -- brought into a room where decisions were remade -- conversations were being batters all talking to individuals. -- it I was I was never brought in to any any meeting I can't imagine. That that they would bring in reporters. Two. To actually witness. Meetings where important incentive next trees is this is yet. Reporting is just going to sources and and and hand that trying to persuade people to talk it looked you know. I understand the sensitivity about about -- security. And I think responsible journalists like myself and others. When they're in position that that's you know really sensitive material they logo. I have gone to the relevant agencies and say look we're planning on reporting that. I'm just want to know that you don't hate. Somehow it's gonna be a problem and then we'll debate it and that I think it's generally these these these you know things are handled pretty responsibly. Why do people talk to somebody like Q if a you know why don't I decide if I work inside state and national security. Agency why would I. Decide to off the record talked to an off the record means I don't wanna be quoted. And am I mean I'm going off the reservation by talking to your might be I'm giving you information that. We want to get out. Right look I think people talk reporters for a lot of reasons and it's often very difficult to divine at people's motives reporters at. Try to do that because they wanna make sure that the information is it credible whether there axes to. And for example but I think in many instances people willing to talk to me because. They understood that you know when the government and not just the government to presents itself is making. These you know really that important and and kind of grand decisions -- some ways to kill individuals. I think they wanted. The American public to understand how those decisions get made. And that there is a vigorous internal process. To determine. Whether these her lawful killings to determine whether they're taking it in into account the possibility that civilians will be killed. To what to determine whether they're pursuing the right policy and what my book tries to do is is sort of late beer -- human dimensions. Actual security decision making these are people who work. You know confronting. A typical legal questions moral dilemmas and sometimes decisions -- on people's consciences and I think. They may feel it needs to let the American people understand. How they make these decisions we are democracy yet. Raleigh and so does provide one. Provide what it cartel or enlightened decision yup so you have a scene in there where the president is being briefed in advance of becoming president. On. He on the fact he has to make it like for death decisions he has to decide to kill people right did describe that force. Well that is early in his campaign and this is in in 2007 he's meeting with there record quark. Who was the Bush Administration top counterterrorism advisor and these first year. And he and Richard Clarke is coming in at the interviews and -- by the president he would he would be an advisor for Obama on counterterrorism. And Clark is a little bit he likes Obama bleed a little bit concerned he wondered whether he's. Not too much the law professor and not enough. Yeah that whether he has the steal -- fight the war on terrorism he said to him at one point you know as president you kill people you don't just. And men and women into battle but you know the president knows the -- and addresses of the people he personally has kill. President doesn't land sure president -- the candidates editor at the time that what she says Gary flatly and very calmly I'm note. I put that in the book because I thought it was a an indication of of a kind of stealing this. That the president had in terms of killing and you know it turned out to be advocate a prescient foreshadowing of what ultimately happened in some way. And and they have before you leave anything else he -- us that you think is a huge revelation or. You know either factually or in terms of understanding the president. Well you know I think 101 of the scenes in the book it really is quite compelling. And that says something about his evolution on targeted killings and drug strikes is his third day in office. When he learns from his counterterrorism advisor John -- that the very first drone strike the presidency has been launched. And unfortunately it killed. An innocent tribal elder and much of his family and Obama is quite shaken by it called again. The CIA to ask what happens. And there's a very contents back and forth. But ultimately. He persuaded to continue this program in Pakistan and I think it's. It's an important inflection point in his presidency but at the same time he also understand and are you need to exercise real control of this program. And there's detention serve back and forth between deliberately liberty in. Security and control and you see that all it was presidency. There are pretty amazing issues congratulations on getting down on paper where you're able to yet. And now for all the buzz the book is creating dead Daniel claimant thanks for being here. You appreciate it Daniel Clayton and author of kill or capture the war on terror and the soul of the Obama presidency.