Game Change - Election 08

abuse didn't I just read game changer and it's an ambulance experience and say what you love that -- save nonfiction book about the last presidential campaign of Barack Obama victory. Written by a couple really good reporters who do use all unnamed sources so they could create a story line that's very realistic. With the dialogue and everything and it's not retribution because. You need to be able to get this information from people one of the authors assurances that John -- John welcome to WRKO Thomas taught here.

It's great to be here with you got this morning.

Your balky it is so what a fun read. -- What's really going on and you guys have all that -- how did you do it.

Well up so we try to do you now mean this this campaign I think for a lot of people eat out there. If there were riveted by the -- as they campaign because these characters you know the Obama's. Bill and Hillary Clinton John McCain -- on these are all people that people were you know these are characters that are fascinated with during the campaign. There's obviously one of the most over covered elections in the world and get the same time you know. People didn't really deal was though they had a real I got a real picture goal was going on behind the scenes. And -- and I you directed over 300 interviews with more than 200 people it would build the -- presidential politics for a long time we sat down with these folks and so looked. This is the campaign of a lifetime. We wanna get the real story what actually happened in and people were. Because we want relationship solar sources do work very -- willing to come and tell us what they experienced now they looked at how they're also listed behind the --

Joshua you fill my cohost -- is he's gonna get great pleasure of this about Barack Obama's moments of doubt. His self doubt because you are right really interesting stuff about you know the room. More when he's getting close of the nomination may be Hillary really was gonna outflank him and all these things that might fall apart.

Yeah well you know he has -- throughout you know there's that you have whether it's in the bayonet in a time when he's just about to decide whether to run for -- that are not you know he he basically makes a decision. To run it over the Christmas break in 2006 men. Comes back to Chicago and has has real second thoughts about whether he should actually get into the race at all insensitive that surround what of the strategy issue now. Give Barack Obama's not a bad deal -- I really wanna do this team like you have to be kind of mentally -- to run for president I'm not mentally -- we had that moment of doubt but eventually decides to get in and then you know throughout 2007. He's had a terrible presidential candidate a lot of ways and -- a lot of a year people around him wondered whether he -- credit making the decision to get into the race whether he'd rather backed. Spending more time and his wife and kids and then you know you point out. Both -- race with Hillary Clinton in the late in the spring and early start to wonder it's you know whether whether he's an actor reverend Jeremiah Wright becomes a big issue. You start to wonder whether you know he's about so even -- it's so close to winning the nomination whether it's about all all fall apart. You know you see to get a little bit of the fall campaign. After John McCain -- Sara Taylor on the ticket it starts to kind of slipped. He searched or were you with a month ago the election that he might lose in the end -- even though -- the world body had a wrapped up so yes throughout Obama. Has these moments where you kind of has these these moments of doubt but the important altogether and comes --

John Thompson -- here we are in the interviews you mentioned you do it over 300 interviews with people intimately involved with all of these campaigns. Those interviews -- contemporaneous with the event -- they after the fact after the election when you're stressed -- just said gee what happened to.

We did we get that chunky interviews over the summer 2008. To talk to people. Immediately after the nomination fight in both parties are over so we did a bunch of interviews in June and July when we're knowledge. When it was -- and yet again not about to have not out of that was going on in the general election but looking back on how McCain won the one and -- Iraq. Obama beat Hillary Clinton and then we get the -- or interviewing it literally started the day after the election so from. November the fifth through -- about April or may of 2000 2009.

It's great great stuff we're gonna ask a question from my perspective here in Todd and I do the talk to the -- routine every morning. Every weekday morning that is that we were fascinated we were is riveted as the rest of the country about this presidential campaign. In your mind was the array pivot point in the Iowa. Caucus. Will Obama all of a sudden actually appeared to be something you know what appeared to be real that this guy was putting it together all over the vaunted Clinton machine.

Yeah there were two moments they're very close together I mean they're that they're both in the fall of 2007. The first comes when I mean Obama trying to decide but he needs the start to kind of contrast to Hillary Clinton more. And he decides the place where you decide the kind of start that process is in this big debate in Philadelphia in October. 2007 and you -- you may remember that that's the that they were Hillary Clinton stumbled over the question of driver's licenses for illegal immigrant more than this salad the moment when a lot of people after she'd been beating Obama like -- and I in the debates throughout all throughout the year.

She -- so good and you can't patent challenge timber yet Tim Russ it's I guess may be part of his final legacy was he was the one who asked that question.

He was Chris Kevin Chris -- girlfriend. Yes he's taught that when she seemed to be doing some double talk and all of a sudden there was a pylon where you had Dodd. John Edwards and Obama all piling on Hillary and beating her up for what seemed to be an inconsistent answers saying two or three different things at a time about the issue. That would like shot a torpedo. In the side of the Clinton juggernaut everybody -- you're entitled I -- might be foul ball and then two weeks later Obama goes against this incredible speech at the Iowa Jefferson Jackson dinner where he crashes the clintons without ever mentioning their names you know he talks about what we don't need -- poll testing -- we don't -- triangulation. We need as principal excuse polish language that that was very clear to any Democrat. But he was attacking Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton even though he never use their names -- it was a speech that combine that sort of total negativity with an incredibly inspirational -- that was the moment when all the sudden he pulled ahead in Iowa and never looked back to.

John Heilman is the co author of game change Obama and the clintons McCain and Salem. And the race of a lifetime just a fascinating read now Hillary Clinton stayed in the race. Well beyond when everybody thought she would get out and win particularly Democrats who were so excited about Barack Obama. Want desperately want her out of the race you guys ever really interesting insight into why Hillary stayed in the race along.

Well you know I think you're a couple different things in the one of those things that -- that we that we certainly point out the meaning she what she thought -- be the best -- the United States that's the first thing. She also always thought that there would be something. About Obama that would come out and disqualify himself as we write a little -- a book about how she thought that you -- was there for his ties to Tony Rezko. Or maybe some racially incendiary things that Michelle Obama had bad -- it was rumored to have said she turned -- should not said he just -- that story was partially convinced that something. The depression had scrutinized Obama had not been that -- the -- finally district not that they would find complex but at the psychological level. I think he do we write in the book that she that a number of people around her you know I heard her talk about how. -- husband had never quit in print presidential politics the matter how dark things were Bill Clinton in never never laid down his attitude was. You know if the voters one of wanna I wanna gonna wanna do you wanna -- me out they can vote me out but I'm not gonna quit just because the scandal I'm not gonna -- discuss the going gets tough. And that part of what Hillary's psychological motivation was. He would be okay total loose in her husband's side but it would not be a caper throw the towel because clintons don't quit. And that somehow there was just part of this thing was she was doing she just couldn't bear the idea of -- throwing in the white towel. And that what that would mean in terms or her husband would think of her that his opinion that a huge amount -- heard that kept her going on. Long past the point of most people thought she should have it would have quit.

John element is our guest is the coauthor of the book game change a fascinating book a multi gesture past. Presidential election you're gonna be at the first parish church in Cambridge John -- Monday night talking about this John I'm curious as a presidential scholar and observe a other than yellow book what are the books about presidential campaigns that have captured your attention and that you think -- at the top of the list the -- Theodore White. Kramer's book on what it takes Iditarod -- the era -- and from those that I mentioned do you have a favorite.

Well you just named a couple of classics I think I speak about mark. Alpha Mike I can offer myself I think there were two -- clever spoke what it takes businesslike kind of the war and peace have a tip and books and in -- The book that says that he wrote about in 107 campaign not nearly -- the campaign just 2008 campaign. In terms of the characters but for literature that -- an incredible job it's like a thousand page songbook and I'll think there's ever been a book better that that -- Not just as to -- US central what it looks like it feels like it's also like to run for president but. Boy did he give you an incredibly rich. Character profile of all the major characters and he writes about including George George Bush the first George Herbert Walker Bush and Bob Bob Dole. You're you're former governor Mike Dukakis an incredible portrait of Dukakis netbook. Really one of my paper nonfiction books all climate that of course as you mentioned -- white of course you know kind of invented the -- the campaign -- You know you could still go back and read the make you the president I think sixty about -- can be sure -- that year and and still. You know get a tingle up your spine about bode well both -- What an incredible race that was but also what an incredible thing. Anyway did it got to be bending the genre. Of showing people pulling back the curtain on presidential politics is showing people were really going on behind all the manufactured images that we see on TV.

His or one other piece I -- I wanna get out on the table for people that is Barack Obama and Reverend Wright I don't always assumed. That Barack Obama because he was so religious and and went to church that he had to know. What Reverend Wright did with his sermons that he was lying when he said he didn't know but you guys give a different outlook on that.

Yeah having quite the contrary I -- if they get actually one of the great ironies of that story we reported the book that you know part of the reason why they -- you're not alone in that -- while people thought it was encrypted not credible. The notion that he could have been going to reverend Wright's church for twenty years. And not heard some of these incendiary speeches. Servants that that Reverend Wright gave. On the -- was that the Obama's we're just very irregular churchgoers you know -- either one of them. But he go to -- go to -- all that often especially after the birth of their daughters. They've gone a little more frequently before that but they're basically. They try to secular people and treat them and that's I don't wanna put it cast doubt on Barack Obama's faith in god is I don't I don't I don't really know.

the practice of his religion and what we're seeing now. Is relatively normal.

Yes in fact writers as you know he's this he's he's decided he's not really chose that church and in Washington DC decided in practice and their practices religion or private so. You know -- and it actually put his campaign in -- in an unusual position because they knew they had the perfect alibi if they did. It's big dog can't know ahead of Barack Obama -- doesn't go to church right -- made him look like a liar and hypocrite because as you say he's the you've made his. Religiosity it is deep -- the big part of his political biography so they decided it was better for him not to admit that he'd been lying before. And and try to take think they abused but he can't get from those people who thought there was not. Particularly believable that did not hurt some good things the reverend --

Johnny take the high road and that's appropriate for an -- with talk radio so we're always looking for the -- renteria self belt around. I'm wondering if the stake in the stench of John Edwards that we see a -- you know -- just mare rolled out in public. It was best. Up parent to others close to the campaigns. To folks like you were covering it and watching these folks. He just seemed to us to be smarmy from day one but now this prime minister and an end to end -- of that's a terrific character of this guy is as a parent too well what what's the real deal with John Edwards.

Well I've sort of declare I'm never reversed particularly when I'm sorry it's not you know welcome gas closed source Java which -- to the guy you. You know it's it's it's -- really interesting question. There are a lot of people who in they've their very first encounters with John Roberts and and I'm picky here particularly people who risk Pollock and the United States senate. Who from the very beginning when they met him when he first came to the Senate 117 their body was just Sony. You know historical and thought he was an incredible phony like one of the biggest donation ever met. You know although she thought he had real political potential should still thought he was the funniest person. Joshi said he was he was relieved disregarded by his his colleague the -- to an extraordinary degree. At the same time -- a lot of people around the Edwards is worst were incredibly incredibly loyal to that and they saw. This guy's been incredibly incredibly nice sky have very genuine guy at least when he first came on the political scene. But over the course of 2004. When he was when John Kerry put him on the ticket. And then in the 2008. He became more and more of this kind of you get a maniacal narcissistic sponsor and a lot of the people who'd been most loyal to him in in 109 when he read percent added that in 2004 when he ran for president. -- those people started to see. These elements of what wanted to say it's called ego monsters started coming out and they and they became increasingly alienated disillusioned by that they started to share the view of those people with that if you bought. He was like shallow phony. And then of course those who were very closest to him started deceit. Some of really reckless self destructive behavior in terms of the affair that he had a -- hunter they certainty that play out they try to argue with them as we reported the book they try to tell them. He had just stop. What he was doing because it was gonna destroy his is political future industry is is personalized. He refused to listen to them. And for a lot of that that was sort of the last straw that features that you know looking back on and now you saw a lot of Edwards is loyal start -- quietly step away from him. At the beginning of the -- that they campaign and a lot of us who reporting on it. You know we saw all these people started to kind of distanced themselves from Edwards but they all had good excuses still had other things to do. Or other business opportunities or their wives are having babies they all had kind of pretext or why they weren't. Sticking with Edwards but now we weren't we reported the book the main reason they were doing that was because they'd be really -- train wreck that was gonna come. They could see it coming from a weight off so they decided they needed to get out of the ways they get destroyed as well.

John Heilman thanks for being here game changing is the -- and -- you'll be at the first parish church in Cambridge on Monday people go to WR you dot com get more information John thanks for being here.

me are we don't see as many guys that camera just possible really look forward that I -- has.

fabulous book thank you John. It is Thomas -- 680 WRKO.