Evolution 12/31/09

The Broncos were from a new rebels world headquarters building. Here's the holidays goers shows this is gonna beat them opening the door. For the other states committed to ask for the same thing -- treatment I agree with the governor. The states ought to have dared treatment --

It's never okay and more slowly yeah this morning yeah.

The climate is changing there's mom to be a little mail thing.

I can't tell yeah. Yeah. North Pole will be gone like Christmas you're low.

passage of reform bills in both the house and the Senate we are now finally poised to deliver. On the promise of real meaningful health insurance reform that would bring additional security and stability to the American glory card.

For a time and I'm gonna focus on this proposed warning them for a few days after that. Frankly. I'm gonna just sit back and what my rather see my characters.

No hobbies Nelson delegate and for the vacationing how we -- identifying yourself bus powered -- you -- drill. Radio networks.

You know as soon billions -- how is not today it's and I understand even warmer climes than we. And challenge the weather for New Year's team. We'll have more to say about.

Does New Year's leave and they. Here -- gunned by in the dedicated that has gone by through the course of the program. And we of course invite your participation these phone number is 8774694322. For those -- you prefer letters it's 877 how we caught. You can leave off the last two -- has no need them chump line which we may get to later on in the program for those of you and -- spirit on New Year's Eve. 6177793469. And email and as you know. You're tuning in yesterday we duplicate emails -- do read them and we try to get as many on the -- we can't. The email address is -- Nelson at WR KL dot com. Well to begin now I was thinking about how we should start the program fought. Gosh we actually loose ends to tie up that summer you may remember that a few weeks ago. -- aid program on evolution. It was to commemorate the 150. Anniversary of the publication by Charles Darwin of origin of species which of course put forward the theory of evolution. The program sparked a lot of animated debate I got a number of emails on evolution and and there was one to persistent question that ran through the email most challenging evolution for those who did not believe. I thought we should. Look again at the issue this time perhaps who is. In the advice of an expert so we have a guest on line we're gonna go back to evolution as a topic to begin with. Address the issue that was raised by a number of people. Are you with regard to challenging evolution those who do not believe in the theory and after that we will go to commemoration of the decade. Of first decade of the millennium the stories that dominated. And even some of the stuff that's going on now in terms of the end of the year. -- Hoping -- stroke is here online she is associate professor of natural sciences. And curator of mammals in museum of comparative zoology. And this is in the department. Of organ is make an evolutionary biology. Professor good afternoon thank you for joining us. We'll be there.

Do we have hoping healing. And no good okay. You know I just read your title. Your business card must -- Melanie and a half by eleven paper.

That's great. On the thread alone just in part because them -- the -- in that department of argument that they're listening bounded off the the curator at the museum and there's a --

How well organ is make of course immediately intimidates people -- he had to -- organism maybe that'll make me it is -- right. Now let me get to the question about evolution. About which you're supposed to be an expert -- and relying. On your wisdom. The the question -- a number of people posed was. Taken except. That there is mutation. In any particular species so for example if the doctor says cheek he should take you right to mine it for ten days because otherwise. Might end up with the bacteria becoming resistant. To the end -- can -- be bad for you were bad for everybody to people accepted that bacteria mutate. But they mutate. Into other bacteria that still bacteria. And what people find hard to accept. Was that one species connection mutating into another. And when you look at I mean if the theory is true that we all started off from these. Very small unit sells literally they came into existence as life forms and somehow. That's gone all the way to bacteria crocodiles and us. It does seem to be hard to understand how that could have been that much mutation because the evolution -- the question is are there any. In between forms are there any forms that give us some kind of information. That would justify a theory that says that whole life forms can actually mutate to different species.

Let that that the great question and and I think the first -- metric well we're talking about is is what exactly at BP's it. Vermin that meat may be good starting point. I would think that meant expected definition bag and I'm working ballot -- is. That when you -- to script that. No longer produce fertile and viable offspring. And they can be considered. A lot to be. So another way we went there to talk about that is that it yet few populations that are -- productively isolated that is they're no longer acting. And -- we can think about it in natural conditions so in the wild. If -- populations come together and they're not able to predict spurred on -- the last thing and not able to gain steam. Then that had been working definition for what.

I should OK to let that one lead then you have to separate species they can't they can't. Popularly together and produce offspring for little off.

Right the the idea being able to get changed jeans and a popular that operations of the homogenized and become one right but they can't exchange genetic material and they can -- their -- evolutionary trajectory. And become more and more -- at. A there initially we -- actually. These very similar in the way they look or act. You don't all of that and get them a bacteria turning into -- outbreak involved. The -- our top you know as one ancestral population and start to the surge become different very often very slowly. And that that could affect the conception or aren't that great to think about this is that prominently. In it yet he is their new species you're gonna actually be very similar.

Now let's which is good because otherwise the bacteria that turned into a -- you wouldn't be around for very long. Annually got a call that would be terminal. --

I'm good activists don't really exciting year. You know and -- the celebratory year are within 10-Q and a bit as well as let -- in --

That's right and by the way as a site as a sidebar here he was born in eighteen -- nine the same day here's Abraham Lincoln.

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And and casting coincidence of history okay.

Yes but this isn't as big here revolutionary about it. But what's really fun as that -- AM -- several several new studies which is. I'm actually shown to be PH and actions though. I am I can -- America's I would first like to say that. I'm speaking nation in general are actually -- a slow process and can that buried at hundreds of thousands if not millions of years. So when. So say well I've never seen. With my -- my opinion BP's appear. We don't expect that to indicate this -- prospect that. I'd take a lot of time -- and not a single mutation that it simulation a lot but the key in. That lead -- group is no longer be able to change genetic that your.

let me jump in for a moment because all and to reintroduce you for people who are coming in on the line this is -- Nelson and billion -- com we'll be with you all the way through. I've been on the line with me is hoping whole extra she is the she is an associate professor of natural sciences. And curator of mammals and museum. Of comparative zoology. At Harvard University OK -- we're talking about evolution the first part of the program and then will shift to other things. But go ahead hoping.

Okay down there. Evidence being must pleasantly let me beat -- arm arm hit a slow process that he a lot of time that we don't expect to see. Amnesty -- appearing before our eyes. That being static in there and there are some examples of its Arab. Either single changes -- mocking his arm. Haven't heard that actually can contribute to what we call reproductive isolation in this. Where Q populations are no longer longer able to that changed team. So let me let me give you are. A very simple it is ample Aaron. There there meals called Japanese land. And that the way it is meals are -- shout Kurds they can either be ripped. They can crypto left and they encrypt their right to respect their reality in exhibit is left handed or right in -- Well turn out a way to mail me. Right handed me out can only -- and other right handed it. That's right this -- this the mechanics that it just can't work or any.

Anywhere we just right handed left handed people could not meet.

Yeah it. Very analogous to that but I haven't they -- but that's what -- get -- I didn't know. That would be me out their -- left handed than right handed out and because. This and they think that the single scene changed that is a single CNET turns on. During development content that that Chelsea their turn writer Trenton last. And right away this -- is. -- that at trait that the -- this said the weight that they out on her and it often prevent -- exchanged between a left handed right handed bar. And so it with that thing looking you can imagine that you'd you'd. Essentially -- Cubans that he would see you beat the left handed Foreman right.

let me jump in the of them playing doubles that I am I'm a believer evolution but I'm thinking how I would react if I'm one of the skeptics out there. And it sounds very esoteric right handed snails left and -- right curved left currency up I think what people looking for is. And how do we get. And in between. All formal or something that proves that. Humans. And chimpanzees. Had a common ancestor.

Right there there when he when he start talking and it seemed like when you start packing about human -- People require even even more evident right and I -- that but there permit it in some ways though. I think that when we start talking about term. Organism that had been that birds floor and tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of ears the best evidence comes from the awful record. And that again has been at a great here or am human evolution. There at the led by Tim White is that the University of California Berkeley is recently come published. -- was 12 hate her I am back to back in the journal science are just the few months ago. Reporting. And reporting -- well evidence. Called it. Say they call it RD. This sort means at the new genus that was. They've but it turned -- both. And it and wonder of it it actually very close to the human. Chimpanzee ancestors -- And so at that point it is that there's lots of fossil evidence that show. Arms that are are effectively intermediate between -- ink is it human chimp ancestors. A lot of the human -- That region that awful. And again as more are more evidence.

Now hoping. You're the curator of mammals in the museum of comparative zoology is somebody wanted to go there aren't take a look at the fossil record me he if you have doubts. You wanna go and see it deserved place single she or are some people charged is this. Is this evidence we have -- a couple of small bones and experts are able to. Generate from that brought the whole animal would have looked like but to the layman looks awfully suspicious that there really is not enough there. The justifies saying that this animal looked like such and so and it's halfway between that -- and a man.

Duckett ever felt that -- ignore that and say it that. I think one of the common misconception that that we expect these. Intermediate opera to be perfectly intermediate and that's form though. You know so it it humans came. -- pitched like impact there why isn't there something that had the human head and the body at. Eight and though that's a common misconception and and that.

There are some grade B movies that I've seen --

Exactly. And all that really I am exit right it's not it's not what we get it back.

So what do they -- you -- good point what do we expect if we came from fish is not -- look at the fish now and now it's got to rise yeah you can cut talk about fringe maybe turning -- like they really don't look like me and I don't think it looks like you. So the question is what do the intermediate forms look like if they're not sort of halfway between -- in person.

Right now. And in the end I think about it it where he met an evolutionary tree all the ink that -- today after being directed that the it that the tree. I'm -- each think any human lineage is any -- me leaning against whether it back and edit your -- earth orbiting humid or act act act. -- activity in K so what it is down. A comment in. And what that common ancestor looked like again that's -- could be a big academic. Beckett theater media and for example that impact -- between our permanent imminent much more likely that look more like that's the -- or.

They -- you go halfway between them look more like -- but at some point if you attracted doubt at some point this intermediate form. There's got to begin to start looking like a human right.

Absolutely and better and and that. Coming and there are important point to remember -- that then you -- is that even armed. It. Being that I'm any different after Obama -- I anything can happen. Faster at some point in Florida that's where.

Our military are mutations are random events I mean is it just. Like every once in awhile we have a genetic mutation. In the human species -- you can either end up with somebody who retarded door. The story of the girl what is it that made the rounds at any limbs or you can end up with a genetic mutation that's a Beethoven or Einstein. Are these just random. Happenings. And once in a great while. The random mutation turns out to be beneficial in their four propagate its.

Yet the random I think upped their lead to a lot of misconception that you peaked in on the whole are random but. Then meet -- in bed then not randomly selected by natural. Know things that are Aaron Seles sharing it. Let the united natural population that blizzard. And that make that lower or are more prone to pretty it. They're not gonna be able there's the by the reproduces well -- be weeded out of the population and the vast majority in activity delicate at this eat here that. That that that Agassi. -- our karma -- that it is up to make it better to convince -- that you happen again randomly hit that you happen that are beneficial that help organisms. In the loudly accused. And survived every part is. Those are gonna be elected or they're gonna be -- More frequently Q the next generation it.

Okay now if somebody wanted to take a look at the evolution. You know pick a species in earthworm or crocodile. And any human. Is there -- some place that if somebody who skeptical could go and look at it and actually see some evidence that justifies the claim. That -- there was some life formal way back when. That unjustified are saying that both we and the crocodiles came down from that early early life form.

I think if you are but in visual evidence some of the best evidence can be seen and natural history here. That the disparity in the American Museum that museum of comparative quality had ever get that.

So somebody comes to new vision -- who -- museum one year Kuroyedov. They can't they can be impressed -- all yes -- she Howell the evolution. When from the very early form very primitive form and headed in the direction of humans.

Absolutely I think about it one of the best example actually comes from another carried their. Of Harvard in collaboration. The spared stink in collaboration with his former -- Cuban hit that the -- Chicago where. A a in this blast and here. And that staggered and what it is not -- that the bishop pot it sort of a transition off of between. A station that -- your heart attack her but being up four legged. Animal. And -- structure out.

And this animal this in between. Form lived what millions of years ago.

That's great and it and they -- Without in the Canadian Arctic. Earned and as there's been reconstruction done -- artists out. It gives me what you don't you write from apple it's. Yes -- but not all body but it is bad and remarkably upbeat thoughtful but has street but they're both. And -- like and check your -- doesn't let that they're rare giant tree and get. Opt for that but it has character characteristic that boat war.

Hope we can you hang on we've got to pause for a break the one of the questions I'm gonna ask you when we come back is to pick up on what you just shed he -- it's a rare form. And I guess I would wonder why it's rare. When she shown much divergence of life and at all apparently goes back to some relief from a few forms or maybe a single form. I would think. That that our campus would be littered with these in between forest but there was this we have to patient bills which the crocodiles never had to worry about. And then we'll be back on the other side among Nelson. And this is how we --

Welcome back. -- Don Nelson rally car. Some new theme music get a little bit later on. Come -- line with main culprit no extra. Associate professor of natural sciences and curator of mammals in the museum from providers wallet -- at Harvard University. We're tying option Lucent with regard to evolution. Because we did but I do the program on that and moved as few weeks ago now under a lot of mail and correspondents about. People having trouble understanding how mutations could lead to different species. And your thoughts and calls a welcome hoping has kindly consented to. To handle some calls from the audience cell phone numbers 8774694322. And the email address is a Nelson that wrko.com. Kobe before the break from first thank you for staying on longer before the break. I picked up on something you said that these intermediate forms as I call him. These species that were between the primitive forms like. That there's been so much. I'll the issue that we show many. Gradations of species in forms to go from an -- to us that there would be a ton of these in between force.

I get they get the acting declare I is that. There. There are of course -- lot of things that are you know for the intermediate forms that are. And expand that are currently existing. That are between us and are very similar -- about -- was thoughtful advocate and why there is -- more -- evidence or either intermediate form or ancestral form the cranky BC and I think when -- to remember is when battling both the origins and the exactly a 150 years ago. There was fearing a little off or evidence at all though most of that it has really been accumulated just plastic ears. The other thing that's really important to remember is that. I'm picked something up allies it would be and that can be considered that very -- the -- while. Are very limited that it you have to have -- card some -- that is like Boehner shout. That -- and -- it settles to the bottom. But they'll play or camp area. And then you have to have it as those who will come on top of that preserve it. And without being the -- bones being blown around that all of that and in fact I think we're quite lucky to find any possible at all.

turn mostly up most of fossil evidence is simply destroyed by. I timed by geology by the weather by all sorts of things that erode. You know wrote things in a few years it will all anybody who's left something out for a few years. Those -- looks like so you're saying that erosion applies to fossils as well.

Absolutely and and get finding an area when he didn't bind up -- have to beat out. I think -- that the best blatantly in the US -- but they're digging new -- that that they are in Q but they've decided about. Where a lot of paleontology don't -- Elect what's really important to remember is that up up up evidence that we do have a all of it is very can their -- and abolition. That is. That we can date the -- to the rock in the speed up for their parents and everything in the right order we've never had an at discovery of a awful that. Out of chronological order that the thing that board and predates. Primitive form earned him well. And said that exactly that this. Bishop hot and it's alluding to earlier that. And intermediate one between -- that Patrick that was uncovered in the Canadian Arctic and the the last eight years. They were able -- because. They knew what kind what kind period they would expect to see that immediate -- You know after the evolution of fish but the by the evolution as -- full blown terrestrial -- pod. And they could find Iraq. I -- yet -- that you know that that was the right age that would be good for making thoughtful. Earned and they could target that area and then export and -- the -- they found.

And okay let's go to the phone lines Walter -- first on the program. You're the icebreaker happy new year to you.

Happy new year do you guys as well and much appreciate this opportunity. I'm I had a quick question nine. -- my main concern. Is. East region or the lack of fossils but I happen to believe in in both evolution and in armed. What is they had you know basically -- creation or --

Intelligent design.

Intelligent intelligent design thank you. And I don't think people don't indicate. Palm whereas a -- A lot of people seem to take okay good either one or the other it's gotta -- there's gotta be both in all there. As far as I'm concerned -- you get the apostle of fossil. -- evidence. Showing that may ending -- from Kate who evolved from all this other stuff to me that almost. -- in the same Lorraine. As the global warming being on the theory it is based on the tree ring evidenced -- up huge free.

It's okay I got I got along thank all we hope they'll think what he's trying to say is that. The idea -- an interest multi. You know that there is and then he gets back maybe what you said before it's hard to get fossils. There are a lot of them get destroyed. But he's not convinced because I assume that's what he was reaching for the tree rings and it's set. That this somehow the Evans is a little bit of a reach in there isn't much there.

Choking here is my my response to that and not comment -- that global warming but I think there's a lot of evidence but rebel army and the Q and could stick. Pick on the topic of abolition I bet. I'll back up almost like -- bonus material. They're not much evidence for our abolition that comes from other sources. I still don't have time pet -- all of it but we can even get -- Q genomic data which is. He can't figure what am driving the -- of evolutionary biology today that it we're able to equip complete scene Arab that it can't eat eat. And see similarities. -- almost like speaking next they reconstruct. What ancestral jeans looked like just that we can reconstruct. Yet faster all. -- it but it may have -- looked like -- I -- the whole genome.

It raises -- question this plush -- the comment before that you've never seen a reverse has never been a contradiction. Of the theory of evolution where more advanced animal. Appeared later than the more premise on the other way around who midfielder earlier -- more primitive. Let me ask the question since we're now into. -- homes and we understand genetics or making advances we've mapped the genome for human beings. Is there a possibility. Sort of doing evolution in reverse ourselves earlier -- Steven Spielberg movies I guess a Jurassic Park. Well and how many there were but could we re create an earlier life form and everybody is fascinated with the dinosaurs but without getting. Quite so extravagant. Is there a way of setting up again. All -- form that has become extinct -- beyond ago.

It is a little bit out bad record you and I think it -- but if we actually wanted to see that -- the ethical but but but. What I think we can. Start city now -- is certainly reconstruct. Ancestral genome. Does get -- as. Just by comparing genome and again organisms that are. Either and expand those living today or are a -- that rich have gone extinct which connects the Jack in May. From some balance that for example. But it pop those it's been my biggest and am. Able to get it -- from Neanderthal. So we're in the process.

Could -- sending the ethics aside for a moment.

Yeah. I I think we get the keynote he went and then what. Whether or not that actually created Neanderthal back either that they think at that much more complex topic at.

There's some. There's some would argue that there really abound in various locales already admit -- let them -- I was told that the cellphone lines now rich an excellent program good afternoon and happy new year --

Happy new the could start you could start to -- I don't think that this. The debate about evolution is sprained. And then reasonable manner this feels so people who advocated for intelligent design. A sideline then sort of ridiculed. And and I agree that the previous call it's very analogous. And the global warming debate where people are but skeptics. And the science is settled but in both cases the fact is far from settled -- the mechanism for speech he Asian is is far from settled the idea of it being a question natural selection that's -- 150 old theory which is really ancient but as far as. Modern times is consent. We don't know. How species change. The the possibility that it occurs as a so the mutation. Israel is. It's difficult to believe because those mutations as will be pointed out resulted deleterious effects. So security's national appreciation that's taken place throughout the history the world and it is in this isolated to a particular. Species that pay attention to her across the spectrum.

Rich thank you for the call hoping wanna comment on the I mean -- there you see encapsulated originally articulately presented somebody who is just skeptical. About it if they Bush's main -- seemed to be that mutations usually lead to deleterious effect and -- choose indication those. -- deleterious effect caused mutant to die out once and -- while I guess we get something beneficial.

Right thinking. -- get a I think Aaron could stay at -- I would argue that intelligent design it's really isn't buying it -- so that's why I think it isn't always given that credibility and and shouldn't be. And as buying it. I get your comment that it would make is that over the last and that it you'd leave a -- as a huge amount of evidence -- evolution. And that goes from -- elderly and -- genomic and data and all of that data that had been amassed the consistent with silent. -- theory of course we don't know everything and and it would be that if we if we did because bag out of its you know I think I'm.

Now that you couldn't. You can contact the guys in east angry about destroying the evidence that the yen should you still have a job.

But it if you don't wanna -- being where I think it evolutionary ballot is an incredibly lively -- and they. New discoveries being -- all the time and I bet where we're putting together. -- is. And what's important to recognize that -- and there's no evidence that as you know come up out that contradict evolution.

What I wanna make one comment because you -- that it's not science and I don't wanna amplify that a little bit there was a criterion. That you can apply to decide what is science and what is not. And that is the fundamental principle of science which is that you have to be able to measure. If you're going to a Nuncio to principal -- polishing that which is what intelligent design is which is also what the principle of evolution as. You have to be able to test the hypothesis he asked to lead to some kind of predictable results for you can find out whether -- true or -- And the problem with the partial I didn't intend intelligent design -- the -- whose god is there's no way of checking that. Tony you're going to say that okay -- I I do will require that all people who suggest evolution have to come up with a fossil record they have to produce hard evidence. But when you say god not Wi-Fi I asked you where did god come from unknown god -- always there I don't need to produce any kind of evidence at all. That's why it's not science and if you wanna believe that something other than evolution accounts for life on earth. You -- you welcome to that belief but it should not be taught in the science cars.

Double that -- that -- To assume that the -- having it -- opposite and and -- I think that really. An important point that up and get -- because they think in the American -- they liked the idea. No -- the controversy to help look like they're worried that. Am really. In the night at Internet Iranian speed limit at that.

If you think you're gonna propose another -- besides evolution that's fine and it has to be able to -- act otherwise it's not science and nobody's come up with a good luck hoping one last question here. And that -- for those who are skeptical. -- brochure just interest -- in finding out more war would you recommend of the for the laypeople now I'm not talked about. Not on that you do get out -- and -- go to graduate seminar did you get overwhelmed by the terminology. But what would you recommend is sure source where people can can take a look at position and find out on I'm a get a greater understanding.

Absolutely I think that the Q best. Detection they have a led. Going to natural history museum and -- get -- in a a lot of them have done it incredibly -- job of laying out the evidence for evolution -- a very. -- simple and visual way. The second thing I would recommend it I think inspired by it -- that celebratory year for Darwin. They've been a number of book about evolution and Q popped to mind in particular. And the -- is by -- coins in it called. Why evolution is true and it's written for the general public and lay it out yet for the abolition. And the -- in his written by Richard -- in of the greatest show on -- evidence for evolution. That's a very lively look. It's -- MR I am tired -- and creationism and intelligent design but again. Both could be -- really am. I cannot get them up in the debate have really just say hey here's the evidence for evolution. That claim that the general public are -- way of making that they're both great resource.

The first more Q why evolution is true you should -- how do you spell the name.

EO YX. He's a perfect that the universe -- out of.

Hoping I wanna thank you for giving up on your New Year's afternoon to spend time collection -- to clarify the debate I hope you resolve the presumed evil but. Also we'll be able to calling you again because we may not have given the last. The last word on this.

What a sound Dayton happy near you.

Thanks happy new year we're gonna pause routed back on the other -- your calls are welcome Armani -- this is now we -- program. --

Okay welcome back tow the line right here next on the program. You've got about a minute and a quarter show you take it meant more ahead.

Javier you're still talking about evolution -- I try to thank you so much Barack cover most talked back and happy new -- to -- it doesn't get to talk to -- But anyway obviously if you had a machine. That could reproduce itself. Or in other words Richard have been -- make all the and then take the parts and put them together. To make another machine. It. The amount of information. But it would take is estimated to be. About 1500 -- That's a huge number that it intends to vote total 400 Apollo.

Well I am. Only a -- up but I thought the guys at MIT had done something like that. Yeah these little machines that we're gonna flood Cambridge on the thin enough spare parts we're gonna make themselves. And I don't know I -- you -- among the contradiction evolution.

But but anyway -- that -- a guest single cell simple single cell. Who really splitting things. Has about the same amount of.

Complex city. So good when when the evolution just talk about well we're really it was a.

And running out of -- so I thanks for the call. This is nothing else in here into in the valley for our program.