Gaza Conflict

Welcome back and good morning to you if you're just joining us on this school vacation week here in Boston it's great to have you on WRKO its veterans forum with Tom Finneran. I'm joined in the studio by holly rover show well known Republican strategist and consultant. And warrant told of the well known attorney in Holland and -- and form a democratic profits all the yet. In Massachusetts you know a couple of times today folks. I'm talking about 89. Would make quick reference fleeting reference that we kept promising -- would get to a to the situation in in in Gaza. Israel has opened up a very very heavy and an intensive bombing campaign there were 45 -- that the -- in yesterday's globe. Split between peoples are expressing a sentiment saying Israel has every right to defend itself these rocket attacks. Have been unprovoked and just happened they fall daily. On the population. And other folks saying what Israel has been doing the in Gaza and to the Palestinian people is absolutely. Unacceptable we are delighted. To get a little inside on all of this to welcome -- follow Lowenstein she's the associate director of the Big East studies program. At the University of Wisconsin in Madison. Jennifer Lowenstein thanks so much for joining us here on parents forum AM 680 WRKO. Yes -- coming through you coming through loud unclear. They are a very -- headline in today's Boston Globe and obviously the the headlines in yesterday's -- of the Senegal told us as well what's going on it's been on all the major stations. A very very intense. Bombing campaign by Israel and they seem to be moving troops and tanks to the board up. Ferrari -- a a full scale incursion. Tell us from -- point of view ms. Lowenstein what's. Going on and you know who -- hold responsible for the.

Well I can't say that I am at least people who look at it didn't. Both sides and that there equally responsible because they're not. When people is occupied and never -- the other people as occupying. And when and then when that case I I tend to blame the occupier because. People don't like to live under foreign domination and the Palestinians live under Israeli foreign domination. And Gaza as well as in the West Bank. Until. In this kind of situation. The thing to be -- the occupations. Of that land have to be ended. When she India occupations. You take away all of the all of the pretax all of them use them for those people to attack a country. But it looked at their occupation continues. And as long as it continues. In a way it is extremely belligerent and in this case Israel has in denying electricity and fuel and water and food and humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip. You're going to get people reacting. Now. -- They're doing it to be extremely -- are you really. Absolutely. Innocent lives punitive. Collective punishing each I ever written in history. And in fact people on the Israeli side talk about it being that way. -- quite glad to see it to be one of aerial true closest advisers. That we -- going to put the people of Gaza and starvation diet until they get the sense into their heads and get rid of -- That was after. Democratic elections elected Hamas to power. It in the free and fair elections in the Middle East well we don't have the right to tell them -- they can elect to power. And especially when you first of on the very idea of having election in in the occupied state Izetbegovic and to begin with.

I believe Hamas is not done anything to provoke this.

I think every time they fire rocket into Israel they -- they're being stupid because they know that it would elicit a response. But I think that the very that the that the -- the cause has. People who are responsible for the rocket firings are ultimately the people occupying the land of Gaza and that the Israelis.

But he he with the with the election that you made reference to and and I'll call I'll use the word legitimate for lack of a better where the legitimate election of Hamas doesn't it become the obligation of the leaders of Hamas. To say to their -- folks. Let's stop the firing and continue the negotiations say it's a ball to president's -- Lowenstein have -- yeah.

One of the problem is that there's enough leadership has since then they've been saying it actually it was 1988. And I'm saying this because I've read -- very carefully. And what happens when Obama was elected in 2000 fixes that what are the most moderate Hamas leaders popular vote came to power. Somebody who said he doesn't support suicide bombings. And would like to have a Palestinian state the borders of 1967. Borders. Pre 1967. Borders means that they implicitly recognize Israel. Every month leader now has said that openly publicly. Now that we don't hear that in practice here. Nobody in this country knows that every major. The leader of the Hamas movement up until today. Has said publicly in Arabic and English we will accept a Palestinian state. On the pre 1967. Borders. That didn't include their recognition of the State of Israel. But we don't hear it because it's not in our interests or in the interest of Israel to have. A Palestinian entity. Site -- decided Israeli state is that what they want just don't want the people there.

Don't don't sure agree however that -- and well whatever Hamas is saying. You shortly engaging in terrorist activities the terrorists like activities whether it be suicide bombers in fact or did terrorist activities that during -- and in the Middle East you know as they. Try to play a role there.

Well I don't see that they're doing anything terrorists like. We haven't committed suicide bombing in quite awhile. The real terrorism as far as I'm concerned it's coming from Israel when you could one point five million people. Under siege and you deprive them in the wintertime. -- seat to. Electricity.

Fuel cooking fuel. Water medical supplies.

School -- I think is doing -- to one point five million people and that means 750000. Children. And those kids are not -- ethnic. When they don't deserve.

Roddick should have been far far filed into in Israeli territory they've been shells at they're being shot into Israeli territory. You're saying Hamas and Hamas leadership has nothing to do with that.

They have something to do with that some of the groups that are doing it are separate they do have something to do -- an -- that -- far I think it's stupid. But I happen I think it's -- instances. Strategic. -- Let me finish I don't think that it's a particularly at the -- is strategically moved to do it. But I don't think that you kill. 350 Palestinians who are essentially innocent because Boeing rocket killed one Israeli that's a disproportionate response. Just as putting a million and -- people under siege is a disproportionate response. When you have a moderate leadership saying we're willing to negotiate. We don't hear that year.

Our guest is Jennifer -- she's the associate director of the Middle East studies program at the University of Wisconsin. Madison. I read in the paper and correct me if I'm wrong mr. Lowenstein an area if it's if it's an inappropriate. Report. I read that some. Of the missile launching sites. Had been consciously placed next to hospitals schools are in the midst of residential neighborhoods. In order that hopefully I guessed that they can continue to fight with impunity and moral less. Force Israel to back down from -- retaliation because of us civilian damage.

Well the first of all I would like to know who is giving this it's -- because usually they're not Independent reporters usually they're coming from the Israelis which makes it. First of all of that -- that. Secondly if you look back to in the 2006 Lebanon war is through making the same accusations that his -- Lebanon that they were firing. Missiles into Israel from heavily populated areas. Therefore. Putting endanger the lives of Lebanese civilians. When the world was ever what became crystal clear is that was exactly the opposite. That most of the Hezbollah fighters had been firing from places in southern Lebanon that would completely isolated. And that in fact they went out of their way to avoid involving civilian casualties. Telling telling have an Independent witnesses saying that -- that's what's happening I won't believe it.

Help us understand -- from your point of view watch. You would like to see president elect Barack Obama do or say. You know over the next couple weeks before it becomes president and that -- the immediate aftermath of becoming president what can he do to. You know come this situation and then get and a ghost a legitimate negotiation on track.

Well first of all he could he could easily have very you can have a very prominent role right now I think. Wouldn't discriminate -- an acceptable in disproportionate responses have to stop. And then we can only come into office. Making that step of cutting the Israeli financial and military aid until or unless you. They end the occupation of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. They've been threatening they've been telling us now they're gonna end this occupation. For 41 years. Now tell me why didn't take in 41 years to get the hell out of there count territory. You know there are there for a million Palestinians don't -- and foreigners ruler ruling over the.

Jennifer why did you Jennifer glass out to but bonds is Israel but Israel is not allowed to respond back. I wouldn't say that there there -- and calling it do it as China's duke it out where -- error mean.

Wait a minute wait a minute. The person that I'd bet that violated the cease fire in November was not a month it was Israel on November 4.

Have you every -- disagreed with Hamas. What have you ever disagreed with the mass.

I -- I completely disagree with their ideology on every on every issue.

Can you sound like a defender of theirs.

I defend people living under occupation. Against this and that government I don't particularly. Appreciate -- implement Islamic government. But they are not the ones responsible. For the suffering of a million and a half dozen people.

It's come sits responsible for the as they -- Bonnie Israel you don't think Israel's Kerouac. You know --

That Bryant because what in fact is happening is that the bombings and rocket firings into Israel artery an arm of they're not the that they are not the initiative. The initiative is the scenes. If strangulation and the the cutting off all basically the most humanitarian. Aid into the strip. Where you have a million and a -- people living in sub poverty conditions. When you put people like that when you put people in those conditions. And you tightening news every single day little by little they're people in Gaza cannot leave and they cannot return. Now you tell me that they are not supposed to respond. -- sit back and take that every day when there incursions into their land.

We -- our think our crude oil are over there over there it is they're Jennifer area and we're gonna go to calls it is two ounces cyclones what you don't think that well. It Israel is being shelved that they're going to sit on the enhances well social maybe some of the conduct on both sides it is not what we would like here.

I would definitely not like. Not to fire rockets I think it's stupid and they know it's.

And they know what the response is going to be only democracy in the Middle East let's go to -- very Democrat let's take some calls -- Lowenstein is our guest she's the associate director of Middle East studies at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. Built and is calling from Dedham good morning milk but -- line with professor Lowenstein.

and the -- hello I'm like -- professional Lowenstein honest about that on the way to begin with you. Begin with you alas that Israel is not very democratic. Israel does not democratic. Well and you continue -- that there.

If you're Jewish you have most of the rights and privileges -- all of them this year Palestinian.

And you have a citizenship then Israel are discriminated against. In almost. Apparently they don't have to ask him. And colluding in housing and education. In medical services.

Your Internet tallies are denied their rights that too is in some cases even to be recognized and that we don't get me municipal services.

I don't know and I carry I had not all the to make a second point and I and I want to give profess alone allegedly shot when asked why don't you know going had no you're you're -- second point -- the in the are the professor. -- outlook and I -- in Israel I am pro Israel I am against Islamic terrorism. And I've been to Israel have volunteered and I am Mary and and help them out of medical supplies during the war. Let me get help Jerry -- don't answer plain enough blame on Jewish terrorism. Which happen every single day against people who are here are a living under occupation.

Appreciate the call that the let's go to Anthony he's Colin from Hyde Park K Anthony welcome -- on next with professor Janet felt Lowenstein.

Hello everyone. You know right. I always try to cut to the chase because I know. Welcome back to look into is very passionate about what she's doing I think estate. Part of the greatness of being in America and being American to I think we we have the we have the answer is if we look very closely. And I'm African American to and I I was remembering -- the sixties we had almost minerals. You guys remember will be group scrutiny but we will on the brink of a civil war between whites and blacks. And if the whites had in their policy. Red hair from an -- or some whites here and there -- Groups who really wanted to destroy black America but if the flights heading -- policy. There -- their goal was to exterminate black America we would still be fighting right now. And I unsettling threat but what mr. Obama has to do. And what doctor to doctor has also do. Is to think in terms of the bottom line the bottom line is that the Palestinian government did most of them -- Hamas the typically. Has been -- doctrinal statements and are teaching -- children. That Israel must be exterminated.

When did you read that because I really like to know what -- inherently you know possibility and there's even though it and how much do you read each day this economy -- valujet and the Palestinian classic look -- and no I don't go to Thailand not change that. In the classroom in Israel. And learned about. The areas. Because Israel has. A policy towards Palestinians. That can only be described. As recent. There's nothing nicer to college. It's -- it's. Flagrant. There -- people within the government in Israel who are asking the Arabs to get the hell out of Israel. As well as out of the occupied territories professor -- And egalitarian. Society.

Professor this is Tom Finneran and and the host of the show when I appreciate it you've been greatly time we're gonna stay with this with you when your calls just want to make sure unclear if the rest of our callers who are calling in. I -- speak. Arabic. As well as English obviously and it sounds to me given your response the Japanese call. That you've read a lot of the original documents curriculum men and in the -- school books that I provided that.

I have read enough from them and enough. Friendly Israeli -- as well to note that. First the -- you're gonna go after Arab text book and -- Israel in my -- go after Jordan Egypt because they're much worse than what the Palestinians are teaching their children. And I -- secondly that when your Palestinian child. You don't have to go to school to learn how to hate people occupying. Well you have to do is walk home from school and look at that. That the armed men in the streets. The streets are so that the men who are carrying guns -- appointee mimic your parents. Who are holding checked block and roadblock and didn't demanding permits everytime you need to get to the hospital every time you need to integrate street. That you know you don't need a textbook to learn how to hate people like that.

Okay let's go to Nancy caller from Mansfield hey Nancy welcome Iraq you are.

Good morning -- our local I I want to YL I V I live in Israel. And I'll concede I did actual -- excuse me out and not. Not a knock entry and exit yeah I'm I'm I'm -- anyway I lived in Israel to. -- like them. And the other is that I. It on and then went to eliminate every single -- and -- greatly. Israel cannot -- app and you know we wouldn't. Away in the downtown -- I -- and let me know. -- And ignorant because apparently happened that Islamic groups that there. Even in 1 country that -- quite confident it. -- Is that Hezbollah. And the brotherhood is that al-Qaeda. And I --

Let let I let her press image professor in the interest or clarity let me jump in here and ask a question. Is he ready particular group Al -- whose documents and publications textbooks and alike. Are calling for. Eight peaceful mutual respectful coexistence because they think that's what's so many of our policy would like see -- hear about them but did not aware of that.

In in 2002. In Avery is in the middle at the height of the second Intifada. The Arab states -- the Arab League met together. And put together something called the -- program. Everybody program. Offered to give Israel complete recognition. And peace and security. In return. For a Palestinian state. The pre 1967. Borders. They would follow. Full diplomatic trip recognition. Peace and security. If Israel would give that we would withdraw from the occupied. Gaza Strip and West Bank and allow it could be a Palestinian state that can't be terribly planned the Beirut plants. It's been reiterated his Saudi Arabia them. This and asked for by the egyptians and Jordanians ever been. It even you even have countries like area referring to. When Israel was presented with this document. It practically tore up if figuratively tore it up in front of their faces.

There are going to tell you -- for a Hampshire because I already know you are up against the clock has now we Tony from New Hampshire for the while scala professor Lowenstein eight Tony. You are next with Tom Finneran and professor Lowenstein.

I point. I just wanted to make one quick point I've been -- analysts and and I feel she's so good at any one way I have 111 quick question and black alike act. One hour collapsed my heart and it really recordable compact walked in Almonte lit up and I'm sure that would be all over the knows what people like it's helped them.

Palestinian got in an ethical team in tell of these killing 300 people in the first strike can't. Where would that when was the last time the Palestinians got in US made tanks and armored personnel carriers. And rolled into height and that -- and a lot and demolishing people's homes and businesses. Tell me what the last time that was because you see -- the Palestinians even had F sixteen's they wouldn't be need to use your body. To blow people up which I think is is the desperate desperate and indefensible act. But the fact of the matter is you're talking once again is that something that is so disproportionate. That you're putting the blame on people who are so. And I did -- compared to the fourth most powerful country in the world. That it's almost laughable security talks.

Our guest has been professor Jennifer -- the associate director of Middle East studies at the university. Of Wisconsin in Madison we're gonna let her -- appreciate the time and obviously we'll reach out there is the story continues to unfold is a dramatic story a professor again thank you. Short break bill cooks he read back to the calls to holly into warrant in a moment on I am succeeding WRKO.