Peter Koutoujian

Hey we all agree that is a good open couples a lot of subjects in a very interesting and provocative way and by the way I had -- bush was great -- that bush was great he that he received a Red Sox. At the at the White House this ceremony world champs all the rest that stuff in apparently he was he was on his game. And you know I think the best way for a guy like him to be on his game missed a poke fun at himself first and foremost that he did -- And that your video opened I'm speaking right here in the -- WRKO studio -- that with the ladies first Golisano. Regular eight to ten guest cohost deal with the one and only win -- and it with I was. Yes you work god she's XT unexpected are -- like I don't know I have no I have no expectations what.

I know we're going to move on quickly to -- contusion who's in that the studio with us today but. Before we get to limit the -- this isn't and I go ahead -- at my feelings were hurt and I understand. Feelings were hurt today it's you get -- Hillary you're you're into Boston Herald today you're going to lead story the -- cases aren't a lot of -- on the page everybody turns to our secure ahead look at that -- trashed and I understand some a couple of weeks ago did you have you heard from mounting any. You gave me this beautiful but Jabber for. A beautiful and I was so excited ice literally stripped right here in the studio. Get any ink and attract Gaza -- and the air yet -- architect tells you all know euros a dirty word and you'll are the lead story in the tech I just tell -- who you're sleeping with which of them want to I just wanted to and argued that a -- and you. Yes I just know who squeezing your -- much house and that's as we pleased. All pop music dirty dirty word -- alerting you get the lead story at an evolutionary.

Now would you say hey can I finish the introductions of the guests we have here in the Iraqi -- neighbor of yours to a certain extent Peter contusion. It's democratic state representative from wall they haven't read -- kind of -- and a piece of Watertown as an ounce of Watertown and eighth. It smaller piece of the best piece I don't credit don't know much about that redistricting nobody nobody believe -- I didn't -- but paper that. So -- could to a genius -- today. Tickets if you -- not much inside popped in my eyes right well I don't know -- inside that is -- pretty public only a few months of people not so -- Tucci and now filed legislation yesterday -- to address something that you and I have actually talked about there are two cases as I recall here in Massachusetts. I'll try to set the scene and in -- kind of stepped back as the got two very knowledgeable and energetic folksy. One of the cases. Involves the girlfriend she date this guy. And the guys brought sneaks into the bedroom one night and she'd mistakenly thinks is the boyfriend with whom she's been. But having relations. -- a long long time and she has relations with the brother not with the regular boyfriend and we you know when she discovers her mistake -- things this is that I didn't -- consent to this -- look I don't swim -- lights went pretty much the same bills -- matters -- but she -- she has sexual relations with somebody that -- just say there's no consent -- Goes to the supreme judicial court ultimately and they say -- you know fraud deceit misunderstanding whatever it is not to is not sufficient grounds to say I was raped and then this little slightly different facts I think it was pharmacist somebody somebody involved in the medical profession oblivious of -- was able to persuade -- probably by virtue of the fact that. He held the position of or at least medical authority wearing a white -- that he had two conducted examination and during the course that examination he took advantage of the woman in question and she feels and consent to this.

Well I quit and -- something of a pharmacist who was filling prescriptions told women were pregnant and went there to get their prescriptions filled. That he was a gynecologist needed to do exams somehow related to their medical needs that in many took them in the realm of this guy this -- a guy. Literally serving these pregnant women in terms of giving them their medicine. And pretended to also be a doctor and since I gotta do examination which by the way is called -- in most states and so that to went to the SJC and the yesterday's he came down with its decision so. In -- that's and go to the ester C -- no actually that they put the prosecutor chose not to prosecute because the -- decision. Essentially the SJC says look.

We might not like the situation of the results in the east in this case of these cases but. That the legislature to speak it does about yeah -- stick in the legislatures along. In steps Peter contusion and yesterday filed legislation that I decided to say one thing BSC said in this state it is not a crime. To trick somebody into -- current sexual contact with you can have you tried to intuit.

Back on them I would -- that question I I take -- and -- that percentage -- ago or maybe you know she's a while the patriots cheerleader the national what is basically put the Dallas Cowboys became America's team and every exit all around us but I I I. I was I had ever -- so you guys like being tricked I would the last with Wendy Tom and I remember the pictures in the eighties big puffy hair a very different uniforms back as a matter of fact is about it and I can't be that.

books so we can put it up on the EI KO website we're gonna have to we're going to take some liberties with Wendy if not a little trails federal crossed the -- that the yesterday -- out -- concern out there consent so let's go to to judge you got seriously as the in -- you've done you've been a defense attorney you've been an assistant DA prosecuting cases. In the courts the commonwealth -- contusion. You see this situation Unita and had it not very happy with that at all and you step into the breach what action have you taken to address the situation.

A we had a we filed a piece of legislation yesterday we had a press conference with the District Attorney Leone in Middlesex County -- really young attorney. Early in Worcester county who had one of these cases and we filed legislation together and we had actually worked on the piece for a number of months trying to make sure that we could capture those that we wanted to capture those sociopath that were -- people by using fraud deceit or artifice without catching those that shouldn't be caught within the law and so we were very careful in trying to grab something and it took awhile but you know it was at the invitation of the courts the courts said unless there's an element to force the force necessary. Two two to basically take advantage of this victim it can't be considered -- now the courts could have interpreted fraud or artifice or deceit to be a type of force they do that in other cases they didn't choose to do so in this case and so they actually. Called quote unquote on the legislation to create a new substantive offense to encompass the conduct at issue so calling us out to act on this and so that's what we did we draft is something I think it's a good bill at the it'll protect victims it'll capture those social paths that are reaping victims out there and I think it's a good piece of legislation.

Let me just jump in Peter because I want to read the language and ask a couple of questions about this. Here's the language for -- to ever has sexual intercourse or -- sexual intercourse with a person having obtained that person's consent by the use of fraud concealment or artifacts. So help us understand this -- you know I that you know I've been communicating with -- little bit about this highlights the fact that you put something together but it raises questions from I'm sure you've had other people say the same thing. What does this -- fraud concealment -- artifice for example let's assume some guy says two women in your might only girlfriends I love you so much have sex with me. And you'll always be my only girlfriend and it and you know estimates it's -- because on your exclusive girlfriend I'm gonna have sex with you and she finds out the next day but that's a lie is that the kind of fraud covered by the statute.

No that's exactly what we were trying and working so hard in order to sort of suggest should not be part of the should not because that's where they're trying to capture those people someone pretending to be their brother crawling into bed with his brother's girlfriend in the middle of the -- those social -- what we found is -- soltys social pathology of these types of perpetrators. -- that they don't just do it once the door more than once and Wendy you know working with the victims' rights community it's an issue of control it's not about the section and this is really the people that we're trying to capture so.

So what does it mean now and I want to be clear at this what's what kind of front is don't look if this becomes -- people in Massachusetts have a right to now. What what behavior your current.

Let me -- Cuba that -- okay so on adamant about -- mile later this weekend in this cute looking girl in the -- the drinks of client -- out all the -- that stuff. And I tell -- erupt. About Hollywood agent. Yeah and and I have the ability to really signed her up and secure her great great -- you know part of the deal out of the deal the areas you know won't what we're gonna become -- we're going to become an item you and I going to have a relations. It she falls for this line of complete BS is that Eddie and I that button via Africa. And them now here's my concern when you know you've talked about the solar orbit when he always teases me that about very very much concerned about prosecutorial misconduct and access and all the rest of the stuff I accept volume buyers yet -- not open up biased factually informed that. That being the case if -- a case like this fall into the hands of -- prosecute. He and most of the public sympathy would be with a young lady who idea. Did you really you took advantage out deceived that have taken advantage of about a Hollywood agent a -- contract ends and I you know but that she would she wouldn't have slept with me in -- via its budget yet because I told these lies -- York. I'm I expose now on they at risk doesn't Gerry Leone have the capacity under this language to say that's not right I am going to prosecute.

Well first let me say that there are three sort of filters that we put into this law to try to sort of filter -- these types of cases. And that's -- but even before the fact that Gerry Leone or any District Attorney that I -- of Massachusetts -- could ever ever conceive of being in masters and would not bring that type of case but number one the specific intent. Of the perpetrate or to use this fraud into intentionally deceived the person with this -- the second that there should be a reasonable person's belief in in reliance upon this fraud and third. And actually this casting coach concept that you're speaking about -- that is a really good example we actually have a right in there that the fraud artists -- artificial not be construed to mean a promise of future considerations so we really tried to take every step. Available to -- to try to filter wrote those cases that we could do so Mori's.

In other words like that like the -- for meatloaf right now I'll marry you just sex admits that. Throws different you know you know Adam Frank Sinatra actually was arrested a long long time ago when the before allies were about -- he was arrested for having -- promised that -- about getting -- and are not that he did the charges were dismissed but it was basically like a rape case that you can't trick somebody by profiles promise of marriage. You know but here's a thing so I'm glad you have these narrow categories but. I also -- and you know. In the interest of openness and fairness I told mister Peter and in advance and I told -- covered estimate. I should think the real solution is something very different answer trying news of nitpick around how to define what Friday -- to think there's a there's a risk I mean here I -- victims' rights attorney. Worried about the possibility that someone's gonna be prosecuted that shouldn't be prosecuted.

With coercing out. Persuading it to version but the with persuading somebody to have sex right -- your husband -- wife. You know please take up to garbage and if you do have sex with -- it's not a crime in. I see is how he talked about the what do we know at that of the the Wendy groupie how shall we take out now I'm not. His -- first first I'm just hypothetical question and I'd get some. That's right there's a lot of drags your attention ash handling and pop pop up. I does that.

I don't want anybody swept up just because they purse tried to persuade some announced have sex is nothing wrong with that it's the nature of the human condition that we do such things with the chatter. -- it to Peter and I -- early on as well and you know I think this is a better solution and -- can answer the question you know whether this is even out there as a real possibility. That will deal with this problem are responsibly in my opinion. And I sent -- eleven ester C made its decision to. We really need we need alot that basically allows the prosecution sex without consent right now. In order to prove rape in Massachusetts not and other states not many other states you have to have. Penetration without consent plus you have to have force and the problem in the case as we're talking about. Is that force wasn't used because you don't have to use force if you've persuaded -- duped them into thinking you're a gynecologist right that's the problem with these cases you can't prove force because force wasn't used. So I said to Peter and -- Leone. Just passed a law that says we're now going to make it a crime to have. Sex without consent we don't care about sports let's just bump it down have a lesser offense if you will we'll call it penetration without consent a lot of other states have this and it's meant to deal with these kinds of situations. As well as people take advantage of the mentally limited disabled people with mental impairment issues they're exploited all the time. And that's not through fraud it's somebody taking advantage of the fact that they have limited impact study so it's easy to do them through all sorts of things now doesn't mean it doesn't mean. Everybody gets prosecuted doesn't you know provide this broad sweeping problem that I think this potential legislation dies. But it opens up that the that the focus on consent which really should be the issue that we.

I want -- I'm going to give Peter good chance I -- chance to answer that but I want to come back to again sort of prosecutorial ambition and other things repeat it to this observation that would -- makes other states have done it I'm sure new research and he discussion -- terribly down and Joe -- early and other people. He -- had some sense of OK what's what how to let the states handle this dynamic it's not unique to Massachusetts that guys will try to fast stock and household gals with -- take advantage of the optional although a lot of chatter lately counted people I think.

And there about thirty at least thirty other states the research in how they approach this issue we've map stars after at the Tennessee and Alabama where the two states that we thought were -- most appropriate model for a Massachusetts this is done with the -- a lot of their staff -- the victim's rights organizations so wasn't sort of done just with myself in my own staff in the -- as was done. With consultation with prosecutors and victims' rights advocates. I'd say that in each of those states by the way there have been no problems with the laws have been no question it's questionable on the sort of applications of the -- from what our research has shown minority overturning of the law there when your question -- your point is well taken about the issue of just taking the issue force out of consent that sick two things one I don't know that that really gets us away from the same issue that we're speaking about sort of the boastful news. I'm an ABC returning from Iraq you know for the weekend. You know I love you you know on this night of -- the -- that you sort of to our mail site I don't know that we had a lot of allied and we filtered that out I think also when he would you speak about the issue mental impairment to mean we already have my case law sort of the fact that they're can't be a consent by people that are impaired now that's.

True do you have to rise to the level of basically mental retardation something less than that which is an awful lot of people people disabled by mental illness something less than retardation. Actually aren't protected. And when I certainly governor's commission against sexual domestic violence this was a big topic of conversation where we're really we have an epidemic of people being exploited and sexually exploited and then just not covered by a lot because they -- consent the question is -- they consenting with real free will answer is obviously. Not yet I don't I mean but it -- my concern and Wendy is that sometimes these victim rights groups who carried -- Iran Renner in Iran momentum. Meanings and are they suggesting that -- have to be a member of Mensa and wanted to do you -- that's appropriate -- better than almost nobody would have sex what you might appear and I would.

It should be noted too that an -- and over the get a a number of the other classmates -- unless they're about to lash and outlook -- comes look better you know with with regard we work with a lot of -- and rights organizations and I believe they felt that this was the best way to sort of captured that that type of crime the most pragmatic way to capture the type of crime I think also there was a feeling by some of the victims rights organizations that to create sort of a lesser or you know -- a penalty that was not as much -- when -- sort of state bump it down sort of is not fair to victims because to demery is a rape whether it's by without consent or by use of force we know that forces a way to dispense with consent but it's not the only way to dispense with consent. -- for those people that's been victimized by by a fraudulent sexual conduct the emotional damage can be -- because every much dissent that champagne anyways because you dragged into the ally should have known I couldn't stop them palatable -- defrauded or Condit I think on in my life. It's a terrible feeling so I can't say that it's better or worse than being forcibly raped but it certainly cannot be so giving.

No what is to parable to let me give you the example in this is why I think it's illustrative of the simplicity of my of my idea. It doesn't mean this isn't a good idea to but I think it to this is both under your proposal is but under a hand over inclusive in my opinion. But I'm here's a thing in Massachusetts we have a when you take someone's property. With if you take my money without my consent and you don't use force let's -- forced out aegis take my money without my consent that's larceny. If you take my money without my consent plus -- use force that's robbery. We have gradations of crimes related to you taking my stuff when you take away my sexual autonomy my bodily integrity when new. Have sex without consent. That's not a crime in the state you have to have that element to force -- two bodies and more important -- stops week absolutely should have a lot that respects people's. Bodies as much if not more as the life and we haven't extra money we have in place for stuff why don't we have him.

It's not coming up on a break we get at least one column who thinks this law goes way too far we're gonna get to his call and continued combat with -- contusion Wendy Murphy and meet Tom Finneran on AM 680 WRKO.

Slowly slowly. Okay and Williams on the phone yeah didn't believe me it was -- yeah. And that is so it all the rest of my.

Top veteran hero veterans for whoever thought they'd get that open up in response. Of succumbed to leave the land of Smith of Wendy Murphy and do you can do you. As we discuss -- isn't -- in the legislature to add little teeth but he loved what have you been prosecuted there's absolutely.

Well so you -- some concerns with that representative to to urgent. I posed a question about you know AM Hollywood guy and pop up by can get this and all of a sudden. She you know that the woman in question false in my line of Bologna complete baloney to my a expose them to our prosecution -- question I guess is that remains and let's take a call on this. Again we go Wendy Murphy in the studio state representative Peter Katula -- forma assistant DA. In the defense attorney as well she's been by both sides of the courtroom as as Wendy in of course the one and only Tom Finneran let's go to John column from Cambridge about a job.

actually from a car but. I have real problems with a lot of being proposed I think it's going to. I I'm I understand that the intention as yet but the law I think the law that's being proposed Israel really problematic but he give you an example if two people get together and what's westerner turnaround a little bit to guide us through the woman if she is married and she says now. And and they then they have social relations it's -- great.

You know what you'd be so funny I'm so glad his cock out and I got a list of hypotheticals that I was going to challenge Buick that's one of them. It and you raise such a good point -- not only I'm not married -- have sex with me and the woman is you know religious and would never have consented as a result she's not you know not of that type. What about I -- I I had a vasectomy I can't create pregnancy and she agrees to sex and becomes pregnant or I'm. I have no diseases and the the victim ends up with HIV these lies are serious forms of fraud the -- real harm not just in terms of the woman. Consenting where she wouldn't have otherwise. But collateral the collateral trees beyond -- now now do we want to cover those kinds of and activities and make them crimes I don't know but she's lied about being married seems to me on the outskirts of of the kind of examples people aboard. So that the that the case is going to be prosecuting -- close Peter you get religious prosecutor who because of his or her religious beliefs. Really takes on this issue and says you know I just don't believe in. You know I think we should punish people who have sex outside of marriage so I'm gonna go forward with -- it wouldn't be forbidden it wouldn't it was a constant.

when he got hot in here as you try to put Peter on the spot because it seems to me -- have been the one in -- conversations about this case with a brother -- to bed and and and and you know imitated his brother whenever. It took advantage of the want to. That you say it's outrageous that the legislature has enacted to address it this and yet when the legislature comes up they work -- DEA's victims' rights groups and everybody else. You yourself for finding ample the ample opportunity to say wait a minute this now broader and easier to prove language in the hands of politically ambitious or reviewed religiously motivated prosecutor is dangerous stuff.

Just because my concern is we absolutely need to protect vulnerable citizens who might be tweaked for because of their limitations cognitive problems. They're they're on the downside the power imbalance you have to cover those cases and I'm adamant that we need to do the right thing I'm -- this proposal. Is it doesn't go far enough on the one hand and it goes too far on the other hand based on -- that -- we just.

And Wendy and I let's get Peter -- I mean I just kind of getting into a false that your legislation -- filter out those same types of cases the fact is that I believe because the specific intent because the reasonable person standard. And the protection against future consideration that those cases will not and that's going to make the point when -- you're prosecutor you know that here in Massachusetts you're not going to have prosecutors I believe will never prosecutors I mean I know we're never going to have prosecutors it's too easy to worry about that stuff. There will not bring those types of cases the -- in import we also have a system where a judge and a jury can make these decisions. And in fact a grand jury to decide not to indict a jury can decide not guilty judge can even overturn a jury's. Guilty verdict based on this this is not the type of case we're trying to capture that it's pretty clear and the reasonable person standard is also something that moves with time. I don't believe those types of the case those of the types of cases that will be brought under the slot I know they're not the types of cases and infected DA's.

or not you're not saying they're not covered you're relying completely on prosecutorial discretion. -- I don't believe they're covered it all -- with a specific and the reasonable person standard that those cases are not subject to the -- I let me be clear about the -- but the point is you can't say that they're not covered because the real issue here. It is. Did dot may and it. Intend to deceive did the woman rely recently on his deception and their for consent where she might have otherwise. Obviously if a guy's gonna lie about whether he had a vasectomy and she ends up pregnant that's a fraud he intended to defraud her he caused sex as a result plus an unwanted pregnancy that is covered by this why is that something you want to --

It's not covered by the as low -- disagree with you again and I still don't here and -- love you when he but I still -- here proposal that filters those specific cases out without a problem.

You know what I want to do let's take a call Greg -- last segment he had to drop off -- want to get to great from Alex did early on as we started this discussion he was right on the line and I think he has something to say about the -- of this law Greg -- with Wendy Murphy and -- contusion.

Well I think that -- but I mean I don't agree with -- that bad that I mean I originally got one example a guy that went around claiming a professional lab with. What and we've been -- equipment. You know he should be in jail by private -- do you want back I think -- an article that the human alive. You know and read a statement like I never -- that old billion -- married. You know I never loved -- I did it for the money Jewish reporter in jail log through right.

trying to legislate that in order to have sex catalogs somebody that's definitely not covered by Peter proposal. Reasonable my point in this group -- There's nothing wrong with two adults make a decision to have sex for reasons that you might disagree in I want to marry ODS_F.s accident present on and it live -- a fancy mansion and have a lot of money that's not against a lot no one wants to criminalize that behavior. My concern is that there's a big difference between. Persuasion and fraud and this statute doesn't make that line clear.

Again you know the great very valid point I like the fact that John brought up the fact that he woman was taking advantage of a man because I believe that the first case might be brought or at least a little while the first allegations would be out she told me she was a model but she's not does guys say pleats please take advantage of me so -- play the fact is that I mean a great listen. My reading of the slot the reading of many legal experts and prosecutors is that's not the type that would be captured so I think it's pretty clear my reading of the -- very clear that it's not going to capture those types of let me make.

Another observation about this okay there is the possibility that a situated some of the situations we've talked about a Nazi holocaust are going to get to the my promise that there is a a possibility of -- high profile situations with talked about two and a half but it could be elected officials. And you know he's so it is you know -- and it's been -- detail and then spinning -- takes advantage of a woman -- the centuries as wedeman -- apply. The -- folks going to sit here with a straight face and say that it DEA who has you know a aspiration Melissa. Aspirations are perhaps to conduct Atlanta agenda right. He and and his political guy at Attica prison with a political profile in the news Pakistan are you going to do. Are you going to blow you -- that I get rid of this case to -- this case you can weakened blinking get rid of this. All of a sudden. Now is media pressure and other pressure perhaps ambition all the things. And simple guy who just -- do what's been going on for -- and it never even comes close to the issue of rape which were talking about all of a sudden he finds himself or could be shape but most likely he prides himself. In the cross is opera prosecutor the more right here about this and I didn't stampede is reaction to the us JC. You hear their case about the brother -- it's a dead the end about the privacy -- well yeah hitch a prescription to get disturbs you know you when we gotta do and are we going to do -- OB GY an axiom that's a rate. Really is it's outrageous -- sort cries out for response but that in response on -- say. Who oh man.

I -- may be too much look out my point is an assist in an island Peter too but and but look he's my friend. -- saw enough of a play him he's my friend I've known for every he is one of the lead legislators in this state who always stands up for victims always cares about violence against women and children and I really respect the fact that he wants to do directing my concern is. We have a responsibility to. Create laws that protect vulnerable citizens mentally diminished people people who don't have the capacity people on the downside the power balance women going into a pharmacist who don't understand that the the guideline about being a doctor. You want to protect people who are vulnerable you don't want to regulate sex. That's why the statute goes too far it's not a.

Vulnerable citizens it's about regular people sometimes want to persuade each other. --

Wonder what I don't understand is you continue to beat up on this piece of legislation again drafted with a number of DA's victims' rights organizations pretty thought out and and Tom this year example I go to the politics the very politics you're speaking about being used to take advantage of a situation. Are also varies in that they wouldn't be. You think about the duke lacrosse case and how that turned out for some people that might have been overzealous at the time and -- when he spoken about this other very -- of people would not be trying to use these types of cases. To indict people and to be quite honest to view them would be weeded out of that system so I simply do not believe. I mean maybe it's because I have a greater trust of the system and I don't mean if you than Utah but I -- trust -- the trust of the system and doing the right thing. I don't see the system you know while many people might say the system that this is the way that it can be abused I don't see that I mean I've been a prosecutor. I didn't see the abuses that some people concerned about I work -- police officers I didn't see the abuses that many people concerned about.

Knowing anything if anything prosecutors under prosecute rape cases end and there's no question we need to do a better job in that regard. What -- he's right that the politics behind. This exact kind of complicates the politics of somebody in a position of power taking advantage using their authority to get sexual access to -- but he by faking they are lying about stuff. They're our politicians who are sitting in the body of the prosecutor right who will take advantage who will press it locked eyes opened the highway that went on -- but I don't you watch on yeah.

About that allows tell disagree listen John Gregory good examples like but -- hold much a cause under the disagree with a slow right now prompt political that the people would not accept something like that we're talking about a reasonable person standard something that the community has to accept as being part of this and that's not the case and -- again I'll go back to. Europe for your suggestion that we just simply take -- the issue of force. And and I ask you how can you fill throughout these cases I don't see that in being part of your laws the mile peacekeeping effort I figures includes many more than this.

now might -- reason I want a law called rape without force is because we already have a stealing my money without force that's larceny if you steal my money with force it's -- how do you protect against these very cases the joining -- speaking about wit it's not it's not even close to covered. It -- to covering these kinds of persuasive sex cases because. The question is did you consent if you consent because you want to be friendly with some guy who's Hollywood producer if you consent. Even even across with consenting to sex because she want to be married to a millionaire. That would not be covered by my proposal my proposal really focuses on the question did you consented doesn't take you can't consent if you wanna be married to millionaire if you consent for reasons aren't.

I don't -- semi consent was invalid because the they reasons were fraudulent then that the two Americans and let me get to Jack in -- and want to get to Jackie and I want to get to the other Collison is that -- well Jackie -- with Wendy Murphy and -- Tom --

Morning an idea again we usually don't agree or indeed that this morning I agree whole heartily when this law opened up such a can of worms like can see how you can see it. It's unbelievable how we try to regulate the that this goes to the all the way to regulating people's behavior and opened up a can of worms when -- will -- right. You know we can't regulate people's behavior of five follow up what a -- because -- like BB movies. That's my that's I have to have personal responsibility to look into that this -- takes away that personal decision making choice. All for a religious prosecutor will do what -- which companies said they when he does not dependable that's that's not going to happen. Believe me it's going to happen -- going to happen and it always happens to this law is abominable should be abolished immediately be accused.

Jack let me Jack let me give Peter a chance to respond because you -- that you learned how I set the case up he -- he read a nest JC opinion. There were two incidents that I think most reasonable people would say that's drop the should be some type of prosecution of punishment for that he's responded to that's going to give Peter a chance -- people -- jacket you said she did you do the woman that you're speaking about having engaged in relations with. You said she says she was a movie stars that right now do you think that that's something up on which a reasonable person should rely in order to have sex.

Yes it reasonable determined to retreat to -- is just you know what's.

It and it reject the question is this community standards of what a reasonable person do you think a regional person. Would subject themselves to sex based upon that'll.

But I can't dictate terms of poet who would determine -- the definition of reasonable that's the opening up to --

I want and really great this morning in how -- you as kind of wait that's -- edit it together. Watered down from -- here. So what -- it was a kind of protected gullible. We're trying to do make sure that girls were gullible or a gullible are protected from having unwanted acts.

You know -- did it in a way -- if you miss the the opening I try to set it up the the case itself that really is the so lost a dollar controversies situation a woman is dating a guy in the having relations and his brother one night when is -- guy's brother sneaks into the bedroom he's in you know that the the one that she's been sleeping with is out for the night -- away whatever she he takes advantage of her she just assumes of this my boyfriend. Name as well in this case you have to close at a boisterous -- on point social and and so complete mistake on her by. She's horrified by this by the situation as and I'd never consent to this type relationship with him this they have plumbers rape.

And the other case is that is you know pregnant women going to have their prescriptions filled and the pharmacist saying. I can fill a prescription the first I gotta do and examine the background and oh by the way in my other life from an OB GYAM and he rapes them. By lying about the fact that these doctors -- those examples.

We're Europe calling my it would be really take advantage of by the all of -- eight --

By zealous prosecutor correct I have them yeah I don't protect the gullible and I think that's a good you know -- right. There's a line between double and vulnerable based on things like being tricked by a super powerful person is pertaining to -- doctor. Being mentally ill but not mentally retarded our laws to protect the mentally ill from being exploited sexually. So that's my concern Peter's palace it doesn't -- that line I want to protect the super vulnerable I don't want to protect the gullible are.

Peter Peter originally of the concerns Wendy who's you know Brittany made a name a good name for herself in terms of victims rights victim advocacy. I don't just trying to raise what I'd call maybe severe he'd questions to this. And yet I know yup motive is to respond to these terrible too terrible cases in the yes JC said ladies and gentlemen a legislature look at this and come up with something you've obviously responded good faith trying to address concerns value here concerns of this is as say an -- and I worry about it. As you. You know -- spent and how with us. As you kind of process solace how do you think you might be able to reissue of the members of the public group called that this will not be the -- The prosecutorial bludgeon that has been described.

Well in autonomy through this whole process this is a very fluid process and in I'm not suggesting this is the absolute final bill this is certainly efforts proposal it was -- a great deal. I'd certainly when these concerns and and that's why look too -- for direction as to how to filter out these types of cases but capture those that are abusing authority. Or sort of impersonating someone like a brother in the middle of the night that is really rape and when you look we're in the -- yeah on this yet I mean these these are rapes so again I'm looking for ideas and you know how to how. We can filter out those types of cases now I believe that they felt that on this law but I'm not one to say this is the final absolute result if we can make it better we can make it better.

And I agree -- that his bill does filter out the cases were most concerned about it just goes too -- filters out potentially cases where. You know we don't want it to be criminal activity -- talking about cases right on the front page of the herald today we're gonna talk about when we come back -- a little girl who was immediately taken off life support Wendy Murphy's been involved in this almost from day one. She was immediately taken off life support she's now recovering. In giving information regarding the abuse that occurred in her life so we're gonna talk about that story in a moment -- Tora may have succeeded WRKO