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Talking Religion 1-20-08

Jan 23, 2008|

Talking Religion 1-20-08

Transcript - will not be 100% accurate

Good morning. You're about to listen to talking religion thank you for joining us at this delightful hour here on Boston's -- station WRKO. My name is reverend -- on Kashmir and I'm host of talking religion. I'm a member of the united church of Christ and the Newton clergy association and presently holds forth as -- at prudential town and country in Wellesley. Talking religion is a talk show like no other in the Boston area. During this hour you will hear the voices of for Muslim Jewish and Christian panelists as they share their views and values. At the crossroads where religion politics and culture meet. Here with me today we have world traveler back in the chair father Walter CNN Catholic chaplain to students at Brenda. University good morning good morning of honestly back thinking of danger around pilgrimage. I'm always searching souls all over the world in them -- -- -- friends it's very hard serving god and many continents. But a father you wanted to do them and exotic places don't have my out of Rome and Paris that the it's semester that's what it's -- that we want to shop it's I wasn't actually hit I was in Rome -- important. I was many years ago it was quite an experience and an Italian. I was I don't know if that would be same experience now a little older -- when I -- yeah they're very instinct. And sitting across the table what it is -- by frank Waldorf who is sitting in for directory and one dollar and -- by frank -- is rabbi emeritus of temple sign. Pleasure to see your shining face it's great to have you back. And mr. Mahmoud Jaffray also a world traveler more than a year more about. Kiss dentures he's a spiritual leader of the Islamic must -- center in Hopkinton -- -- to relax. Good morning it's great to beer and happy prosperous New Year -- one thing Q Mary which well before we began. I would like to apologize to listeners -- it's we had the last two weeks. Had some glitches and India production of this show. In an idea can only say I'm sorry and I'm going to do my best to see what can be done to make sure that shows. Com to you. In a timely smooth and technically precise fashion. So that's. I can say and that's scored the other thing is that those of you who do tune in later or suggest friends that they tune in later to catch the shows. That seems to be another little technical issue in this fabulous public service that week it shows from. Who knows how many years back so kind well. Promise you that I'm gonna be working on -- to make sure that each of our shows are they're supposed to -- Aired one week at a time so this show this morning should run for the following week by. I don't window on the website give me on the website yes and also it should be for those who have iPod you should be able to. Down and cheered her podcast it is and it. Anyway -- -- shortages I'm gonna be working on man tonight again apologize for Ds technical kinds of glitches. Also and response to listener Marcia copilot and I thank you very much. For communicating with the station and you were interested in. A book that I had mentioned and I believe the one that you're referring to is till next book where he refers to the god beyond our guide that the god that we know now. And the title of that book is the courage to be. And I would suggest anybody I think it doesn't really matter what religious affiliation do you have. It's an extraordinary book and it does pushed the boundaries our understanding the god that we. Imagine or worship board top to down that there are so many facets I like to credit my god is like a diamond with. So many facets he can't even imagine an end and one of light Joyce I think is too. Discover those -- as many of those facets as you -- possibly can during a lifetime in this book. Really helps you to to go in that direction and again and it's called Gillick TI LL ICH the courage to be. So let's. Continue I'm because tomorrow we celebrate Martin Luther King Day. The day in which we gather his communities to commemorate the life of one of this country's greatest leaders. His courage his spirituality his -- The resounding truth of his sermons and speeches. And his ability inspiring nation to move toward justice draw has left an indelible Mark upon the United States. There are so many inspiring quotations that I could read. But his longtime listeners now I do have a favorite and I can't help but share that once again I can never read this too many times even for myself Martin reverend Martin Luther King junior says. Everybody can be great because anybody can serve. You don't have to have a college degree to serve. You don't have to make your subject to near verve agreed to serve. You don't have to know about Plato and Aristotle. To serve. You don't have to know Einstein's theory of relativity to serve. You don't need to know the second theory of Thermo dynamics in physics to serve. You only need a heart full of grace console generated by a lot of and I just can't get any thing more beautiful beautiful and that and profound. You know so many of us feel like when I'm not good enough we don't and -- degrees there we you know we can't speak -- we can't this man. We came in serve in so many ways. In this is it reminds vehicle -- from -- on that reminds humanity. That in order to serve god gives you one opportunity after another one Penske of after another. And at the end of the day it is us humans who actually find the reasons not the sort of and sometimes it's corn and sometimes it's hard and sometimes it's some good and sometimes it's winters. But it just takes a little inspiration just a little talk enough heart's really in. And it and it crosses economics and culture is -- and then all of those restrictions that you've been put upon ourselves to. Be able to serve but I I wondered to him just -- and I know father want to tune and a bar -- would comment on this but. I heard another comment just the other day in this. Politics which is all over the place these days. That the man responsible for making advancements and the human rights I mean in the civil rights. But actually president Johnson even though all the work was done by Martin Luther King but it wasn't for Johnson we -- of -- -- statistician. And and and and the and and the amendments that that out. I found that to be a rather racist remark and then in and at -- point is partially. True I think it's absolutely true yeah and because I mean I I think it's unfortunate the way it's sort of became this. Comparing against doctor you order yeah like yes we'll get. Johnson is better than king phrase really was a partnership you needed someone like the job even JFK coming it's unfortunate was assassinated. He probably would not have been able. To put through the civil rights legislation as a northerner. Where is JFK as a southerner as a major player in the House of Representatives who knew all the strings to pull. Could get the south on board with the -- so by the court but -- -- MLK was inspiration and he brought the country. To a place where we had to move. He believed both of them are you knew that piece to bring in about Iceland I just unfortunately the way that took off in this sort of fight between Hillary and -- Right but I do I give Johnson a lot of credit them. For making it happen I don't think so when of the Kennedys -- -- now that's my read and that. In -- in 1963 I was on. The mall the Lincoln memorial for I have a dream speech one and I do know that. The mood rally it was really quite remarkable -- early occasions when blacks and whites can. And Soviet. There's certainly -- grass roots dimension to what Johnson was able to get through the congress and I think it has to be both and I didn't think it was on that one. But the words that time was right the kinds of things that team was involved in and Salman other places in south even in and that's in the last days of his life. It it required someone with his kind of courage to publicize. The inequities when I'm finding distressing in the contemporary situation is there was. An article by Andrew Kohut after the New Hampshire. On -- balloting four presidential primary. And he was saying that they under estimated how many people would vote for Iraq. And that part of the difficulty is that people we have limited education and financial resources. Tend not to be able to vote for black people and that when it comes to pulse they don't answer the pollsters. So the polls under estimated. How many votes they were for a common in New Hampshire EPO also quotes there wouldn't -- -- Dinkins ran to be. Mayor of New York nobody was gonna run away with the election he won by a couple of points and just the same. Difficulties that despite the legislation despite the inspiration there's still a fair amount of I -- plan sentiment in in the country and that I find kind of troubling so many years after the assassination of Martin Luther King. Don't get to that point of beef before -- just plan it's a couple more things smile to your. Question and that is that it's if you want to read a little bit about that Ronnie -- -- who's a professor at the Kennedy school has written a book on leadership. Hand in that book. Follows Johnson along in. In the way that he exerted his leadership. Then in this particular way nine he wasn't the perfect leader but it it it did show how hand in hand. It it really shows some teamwork that as his father -- said you needed. You needed a Martin Luther King to inspire cultural -- needs somebody in place. I'm real power to push through new the legislation that needed to be pushed through P. I saw the debate as for example partition of India creation off a Muslim homeland. Pines in the subcontinent something which was triggered by denying and and on the now comparing on the two for example lord Mountbatten who eventually car of the country into two there was there was this is obviously. It's as as father said that it's not a competitive issue. It's a partnership issue and and I -- that I would think would accept one more thing a vote. Martin Luther King the Mark that you defer to rabbi Muslim word -- take credit for. How some of proposed was conducted and and -- some of bid to getting these these caps and these these light that's if you if you remember. The activity symbolic of the Muslim unity. And have never give up recessions and and whenever it is a public education all of protests. You would see people come -- but these these white hats and I don't know what connection that has -- the whether that was actually part of the black -- almost -- movement or or. But can can somebody expand on that minister -- post article significance or symbolic decibel applause. Wearing white hats the white caps the you -- so few people surrounded. Doctor king. Wearing at the at the viewed these these these -- there once skull -- but but the movie Islamic hats that'd that'd be win at the time of the players next time and human -- a documentary on its feet and fifty have to look at certain cases -- that is the tenacity in his mind whether to credit but it is is that you know did. He is he's marching along the lines of -- -- and you know and so on and so forth so. And some Jews agree the Pope wears -- -- America. Like listen the question be forests as we. You know look at the life of Martin Luther king and the influence he had on the country is how how far have we truly -- In healing idea horrific devastation left in the wake of the institution of slavery. And how conscious are we as a nation that the financial gain that we enjoy has been derived from literally from the blood sweat and tears in on the backs of our black brothers and sisters. And. Can any of -- find anybody today who is. Inspiring us to really walk. That talk of faith and inspire us to once again really strive for for justice for those who. Who are suffering from the lack. There you know I. I have. I think that once again religion is sort of some -- is being hijacked and in in this campaign late night. And it -- usually. And it happens in the historically. I'd like to see religion as the force that it. Brings people together religion as -- we all guidance for us. Instead for example like a father and and his email and referred to is that Europeans -- -- by the fact that by these politicians comparing them so mr. Lowe's motor digits but it's not a bug and -- Dawson do you mean meet you and that's have a private matter. But what are the ideologies and one of the philosophies and what other guiding principles be taking phone that and you leading the nation I'd be getting most of our of the war. And be dealing -- -- this issue are we dealing with. The the underprivileged clause in the society and unfortunately that's a disconnect that -- that the use it to their advantage and sit on the holy NI MI. Moral person because I have a religion -- my life but that don't actually applies on the values that come that that. I and I one of the sadness is of my old age is that I grew up in -- time when they talk about justice as a major political effort. One has kind of faded in the 1960s with civil rights in the great society there was. And understanding about the disparity between those who have the most resources and the least in society. And it looked for a while like we were making major efforts to try to have to even things out a little bit. And so certainly since the 1990s we have seen the growth of executive salaries and hey you know and since -- greed is good pizza. That -- in rough and tumble. Competition that -- through the development of wealth some people do that gets left behind and that's unfortunate. But we as a society do not have a responsibility to try to announce the results equal opportunity. But Gary and equal results so I I I personally am quite disappointed that the tenor of political discourse these days. Because the idea that of liberty and justice for all. The liberty part is emphasized and them the justice parties kind of trailing in the dust. I think -- some. I would agree with the sentiments and then in some ways this whole issue of the legacy of doctor king was happening with race in our country. -- it's great to see Obama for example as a very viable candidate on the taking sides here woods he's certainly and and -- you can't. And yet there's so much racism that remains incredible. Very very deep and I'm I'm very saddened by the immigration discourse that we don't need when he is serious you know dealing with a but the tone of the discourse is very bigoted. Narrow toward people of color Hispanic. Or whatever oriental different languages and so I think we've we've made tremendous progress and yet. This there's so much Mormon all the laws have been change and don't for people of color can sit at the lunch to the table. Write about us no problem with that there's so many of the things they can to -- -- even in the borrowing money from homes in this still. Difficulties encountered tremendous pressure compared to other groups so it's them. You know and another interest in phenomenon you'd you referred to his. -- bomb I'll buy in Africa African American men and it's our I think that. It's wonderful of that. This nation is ready to accept. A leadership so quickly and frankly I -- Americo. Would it be in the first place that something like -- would've happened. And I'm proud of that but if you look at the traditional leadership within -- African American community. They're not quite endorsing him in that we we would've thought. This seeing him as a candidate. And an invisible candidate in terms of the color in the traditional leadership by Jesse Jackson's of this we're -- Aurora sharpens both these sort of on astute sing to him is that are you. Black enough you blatt who's going to be doing the dealing with the issues that we have. And his position is -- -- on the -- or country on largest lead of black people so that's an interesting twist that you've given deceit. And that in in in in in the political landscape in this country is that the only of that who would have the ability to lead. This nation and perhaps -- bridges is someone that someone like -- -- in that group might skin maybe of that but I am not blackened side. You -- you were looking for inspiration for the message of Martin Luther King. And I you know always turn to the pre exhibit profits of the Hebrew Bible Amos Isaiah Jeremiah who. We're and seeing that. But god wants of us is not rich will not sacrifice not prayers but god wants us to. Lift up the fallen and heal the sick. And that's that is the prophetic message that has been you do in recent years I think those I mean. I I think about it a character like among us who we soon according to historians the first of them. Preheat the civic profits one reconstruction is that he bursts into Russia China and new year's celebration at the kings sanctuary in Samaria and says. You guys are proclaiming God's name. You can imagine a protestor going -- the cathedral on Easter christmas and breaking into the service and saying. What you guys are doing it's an abomination they -- they exile this guy they should get out of here you don't even belong. And and yet there were people who remembered his message. And it became the inspiration of subsequent generations to build a religion around trust -- just to show you pursue so. I think the inspiration is there and our literature it's interest in how it fantasies can rise in diminish but for me personally those those words of the pre -- of the prophets who challenged power where very inspiring. Which might conceive and they can come back can. Not I think it's up to really two large degree to clergy -- you know in the pulpit to. To really lift up this voice because as I understand it him no matter what. Religion we have. -- -- -- -- called the same thing which is just can't live on the fringes. A mainstream which mainstream doesn't always think about justice and it it is greed and meet first in forget about you but. All of our all of our religions constantly on mad -- Where we have one -- in with the -- and one foot in with the real world and were called to prophesied from that. That edge and it isn't fun. It was and I think that's why we don't do it it is it's fun and you might get booted out of your church of especially if you're wealthy. United church or did my Oscar our synagogue and especially if you're in one that's. Got a fair amount of wealth then sent they don't want to that's the warm fuzzy message to go you know home and hand much has the potential -- I think I think that's the challenge of clergy hands. There's there's only -- distinct approaches to me how we solve this problem one is some sense of charity. That out of the goodness of our heart we will look after the downtrodden but another is that what god demands is justice. And the air force it's not a question of discretion or desire when you part. Or even merit that you would give but rather that you have an obligation. So -- it's fascinating that in the 1930s the United States was able to put into. The place Social Security to provide for the first time some kind of security for elderly people. In the sixties we added -- indicators of that. Elderly people could have a medical care and and you know it's it's our right. Now but when people talk about single Payer. Health service for everybody it's sort of like socialized medicine it's still undermine the quality of medicine and people are not quite willing to even out of the playing field so I've. No amount of sacrifice on the part of a few individuals is going to solve these problems. We really have to demand that every one participate in the nearly ration them some of the eagles that exist in society. I want to talk a little bit since we've sort of mentioned justice and justice for. About President Bush's trip around the globe and in a way you know pushing his rhetoric a little bit. A minute beat quoting an article both from globe and ten times but in Abu Dhabi the capital of the United Arab Emirates he says. A great new era is unfolding before us and this new era is founded on the equality of all people before god. This new air is being built with the understanding that power is that trust. That must be exercised with the consent of the governed and deliver equal justice under law. Now we could talk a full hour on that statement alone and given the injustice inequality in our own country not to mention the civil rights compromises he's made in the United States based on prejudice. But that aside for now the bush goes on to say someday I hope that as the results the formation of a Palestinian state. There won't be walls and checkpoints and that people will be able to move freely in a democratic state. That's the vision. Greatly inspired by my belief that there is an almighty. And the gift of that almighty to each man woman and child on the face of the earth is freedom. Now -- -- Myers of the New York Times it's rights. Mr. Bush's wars in the Islamic world. His use of the word crusade to describe an effort to curb terrorism and his strong support for Israel and made him. A reviled figure in the Islamic world undercutting his inner faith attempt in an interview with al Arabia television on the eve of his trip -- clearly sought to temper their view that his -- has put it in opposition to Islam. By saying I pray to the same god as a Muslim prays. And when asked how the Muslim world would judge his presidency he replied. I would hope at least at the very minimum people would say that George W. Bush respected my religion. So panel I'm looking TU do you think there really is a new era. And it's so does that match mr. Bush's definition. And how does and eternal little bit TUMR -- -- and decide how does not will. The Muslim world judge mr. Bush's presidency. While we could spend three days talking -- -- -- accusation is that you raised Iran. You them their vision that Mr. Bush is talking about it. It's perhaps the vision of Soviet Arabia Egypt and the United Arab Emirates. Its circulation is not a chaired by the entire Muslim -- which consists of one point two billion people. Stretching from US all the route to Japan. And put him to just visit some of these I would on the puppet governments -- marks tyrants. Who have. Been persecuting -- -- on people without any civil liberties and without any democracy without any dissent. And to stand at that pulpit and and make the statement that and it's south's tells you something about what the agenda is and and but what put the program is I think the most of order do not see mr. Bush's policies on his legacy -- presidency has. A -- sincere. Honest power broker -- to bring peace in the Middle East I think deceived as a after that has supported him apparatus for the benefit of the united burdens of this lower than the noise and then and the economic independence self off of America dependent on oil and mr. Bush's presidency has made this sort of -- the unsafe place invade the you know this region has been in and -- -- and his digital that he has -- For him to pick and choose. The states that he wants to fix their democracies and and leave them off the -- and such is about the other countries have been in the neighboring state to fill out that I've been the exact same thing and he's turning a blind -- so. From the Islamic rewards point two view I don't and divided frankly and and and you can't blame them because. For the longest time there have been counting on friendship and and and the gardens of US. And they haven't Darknet unified son is an example of that -- Progress on water polo fought the year a proxy war for every US. Against the Russians and of honest on and look what they guard the guard the the pilot bonds and and and the fund an interest to were trained and financed by a CIA and and the Netherlands who is creating havoc and it will right now and then again right. So I -- it is done. It's really it's a very complicated issue and RB Steve they'd days see that. Very little progress has been made in terms of the -- solution -- -- Palestinian and an Israeli and so. I I just think that these statements specially in with the bad drop off the -- family and the Egyptian Austin melodic and you know. These -- -- -- respected people in the Islamic -- because you know their dictator is basically. -- I won and -- difficulties I think we've faces. That's democracy is not something that is these are working will in most of the world we certainly haven't in Western Europe we have it in and North America but for South America and -- much of the the former Soviet Union members to into a situation where democracy is not happening. On that the notion of universal that some of of we were all. Created in God's image and therefore equal competes with kind of tribal. View of how old -- society should be organized. And it's really hard for me to see how these western ideas her terribly salable in the rest of the world. That certainly we've seen in Iraq. Weird tribal loyalties seemed to outweigh any sense of Iraqi citizenship and that will all pulled together and share of the oil resources and if everybody will be would be safe with the police. None of that seems remotely close to -- -- H eat notion -- saying I serve the same guy. That there are people who rules say -- served as seen guys -- do and I don't serve the same as I mean do you valiantly now I. I think he's kept. Lies in the on the Muslim belief that Christians and Jews compare essentially. Warship the same garden on the believe then in the same guards because of them -- the -- -- tradition and bridges Christ being the messenger will fund and and and Moses being the umass and Newfoundland able. Profits of scripture so mean I think he was sort of motive afoot in -- that but I. You don't think that the Christian community by is that as -- and neither does it do it Jewish community. -- I think the -- -- -- notion that we are all part of this thing human family is very much -- and that's a few years and but I've also seen these kinds of tribal elements drove into the Jewish community today in big discussion in the Jewish community is about in marriage and how important it is to. Do promote. She's marrying -- the Jews in recent Jewish families so you know that's partly we. Part of the same world and we're all part of the same humans and we so I think there's a lot of internal conflict. In even in the Muslim world one of them the issue of ala being the one. I -- factor in the universe and the sense that we can take care of our particular family and tribal groups. They're in the enormous conflict. I think. One of the problems that statement of the president. Is that I think there is a sort of common ground in the three so a major monotheistic traditions but the understandings of god I certainly very we look at christianity in Chinese consulate trinity. But then when you move beyond those three religions. You have other large religious groups who seek -- the many different ways in mean Hindu religion as a pantheon of many different. Gods and goddesses and ask some aspects are going to get how that's understood so I think. I think he -- means that in the sense of the general unity that the these three religions share. But I think it's a little bit and I found this myself even in dialogues at Brandeis. -- assuming that the three Abraham -- have a certain we're nine member wind as we mafia's take. Is also a way of looking down and other people suddenly -- are not intending it but there are large numbers of people who question -- believing god at all. Or who struggle with any kind of belief or those who don't believe in who -- got as we sort of understand and our tradition so. It's a brought the world even bigger than just one god. -- -- and -- a question for you because and it's. I was surprised and I wondered where -- you surprised but I. That the Pope canceled his visit to the prestigious. -- at the ends university because protest by faculty and students alike. But -- their feelings that he is hostile to science now I've that's my understanding that perhaps there's more to the picture in and you can his son. The article in the paper last week in them. I was surprised to thus opinions and is really them. Was actually founded by -- Pope and now this is a public university but its very ranges the most beautiful church to tower Bible or Armenian. It's too great spot and very high level. School Sabrina very bright students is such. And and the paper of course was making in the picture from on the demonstrators criticize the Pope with a huge might even Medea anywhere -- it's -- homophobia. So there was an old topic compared to the science in the maybe they included. I don't know I don't think Dennehy is hostile to the -- of science -- religion I think in the article I read -- -- quote something that he wrote years ago. But the church I mean just had a checkered history obviously -- is his classic case. But overall most many of the modern inventions and English and science and -- lose them came from within the church monks or priests in monasteries. Studying this guy stars and certainly believing in. We before even Galileo they knew that the world wasn't flat in Peoria -- this to this. The -- -- more to do church power and control and over Galileo and how would be tot. But I think it has been it sometimes hostility towards science in Christian religions. And it's still conceit so exist with you look at the issue of creationism darwinism. But the Catholic Church at least in the more modern period has been much more open push for example the Catholic Church in the United States is opposed. To teaching creationism in schools and we believe interpreting the book of Genesis as a religious text not a scientific one. The Vatican has an observatory in astronomy in it's actually in Arizona. Staffed by Jesuits but these having castle Gandolfo. But the pope's summer home is that the sky over Rome is too polluted that she'd built an observatory that very high level. In lawless scientists of the world in their -- reasons constantly studying stars so the church has always had a about a million churches and other side which at times that he. If you can go ahead in the wrong way they see this threat and then they they they get very upset. Pods so it's been sort of a mixed bag if you look at history on the other hand in a lot deeper history there's always been an affection for science. And the Catholic Church has always been big gun. Reason and renewed faith not. The -- does not exclude reasoning. The church built the universities who was always big universe is in the west command of largely church groups even our own country not just Catholic and Protestant groups is -- And but at times you -- the reaction has been very negative if you look at some of the events. But as a mixed bag of surprise of this incident I don't know enough about it to prevent. I would thought it would be better to go and give the -- and navy field some questions he's brilliant man -- could take on the students. Tom but maybe there were other things maybe they felt. It wasn't time safe word I don't know I don't know -- Republicans. Is that this particular Pope -- who's facing this difficulty was or its owners of the institution -- it -- of the Vatican noses of the either Catholic Church. There's you know it seems to me and then in the last few years he has become a bit controversial group certainly the Islamic order right but -- -- in the end zone or when he first became public remain the statement and as a lot of negative right. But now he's hosting a relatively soon a major gathering of Islamic scholars. In response to their letter to the western religious leaders. He's going to host of the Vatican -- conference with leading scholars in the world of Islam to talk about. The connection of christianity to Islam. In this is that the initiative -- Islamic scholars that the Pope is Clinton hosts this gathering pricey a step in the right direction -- in his. I I think one of whom -- is also personal style you think about the pastoral wary of its predecessor and it's sort of like. Yeah that the lack of a pastoral presence you can make a big difference and we certainly see dad didn't. In small congregations where clergy with the pastoral approach can can often soften the hard edges of doctrine and teachings by just making people believe that he really cares about them and I don't think Benedict is it's a warm and fuzzy person. Now that the and that's when I was in Romans -- sent over the new year's holiday and we went to see the open some of those. Scuttled by the -- behind the scenes talkies. He is ridiculous different style with regard to the the robes in the session that he wears that this is a big thinkers say but maybe indicate something. It's like is -- he's unlock this treasure house of gold -- so I'm really hats that are -- we haven't seen in ages and thrown of them have never appeared. -- everyone's talking about is that the whole different style. Whereas we went through a period. I'm more or less getting rid of some of that stuff front. I'm getting rid of about brilliantly in storage selling it to the -- whatever way -- he seems to embrace that also I think. In the Italian world. They feel more aggressive approach into their internal politics. Which is always an issue in Italy the Vatican and the Italian governments in the love hate thing it has all the time had recently the one of the lead cardinals newly proposed. Looking at the abortion laws that are in Italy. And reviewing them. And his cousin Hughes star and a sense so it could be that there's other contacts that prompted this particular just. Not particularly with the picture that we style can engage you know sights sounds to me like there's a lot more than just science I think so let's I shall always got. He's a few minutes left in this moment Jaafari I I really want to turn to you and -- we're so glad that your back from Pakistan safe and sound. I'm assuming you took your family with you when you went he has conceded. And you have family there an action I didn't realize that you weren't there in Pakistan until I signed articles and one of the metro west papers. Quoting new. Just after the tragic murderer four and former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto. Since we have you and I am and you were there I would appreciate you telling us about what it's like being there and what her murdered means for Pakistan and and for us. And what does -- mean with regard choose to terrorism. I would seems to meet a very real possibility that -- cases now going to be. Flourishing and all along with the town of and -- or not that's a misperception that. Just where I don't Muslims in Pakistan now they have to be feeling. Devastation and chaos and confusion and anyways so I I'd I'd Unita a lot of questions but just not tell us what -- How -- count what what what you've come homeless begins. But clearly it's it's sort of a sad day in in the history of Pakistan and to lose a leader that. Clearly was at the center stage of the word she came back about Osama after being in exile for eight years the US brokered this indeed between the government of Pervez musharraf and and bin Aziz. And and she was a Prime Minister twice in the past and the on paper it would've been a perfect situation for bugs on. That the publicly popular leader. Comes into Vargas on gets elected through fair and square and electoral process. And becomes part of the mainstream and becomes part of a government and ministry and government gets its legitimacy if you weren't and that would be the perfect partnership -- for the military end and acidity democratically elected government and that clearly did not clear -- we will -- the some of the elements that have infiltrated into. Pakistani politics and perhaps old saw in the part Sunday security apparatus over the years because remember. This -- creation of thought of on in the Madonna dean's laws. A joint venture between CI -- in by the -- -- -- and this is part of fighting naproxen water enough on Islam and this is how they were. Fighting their proxy -- in Kashmir and India. And the reason part of son needed bugs on friendly a profile to -- government NO one is on. Laws to -- for the exact same reason and by the bonds was the product that do little to install and as the government. Now he can win this war on on. -- was declared him part of son became a very strong ally in an an apartment. And that process. Unfortunately been as you came back to. A nation that had changed tremendously eight years was a long time in this that would change in political landscape of farthest on and opinion somebody as she miscalculated -- who oh what the security -- war and and how she had to conduct and -- herself and the day she landed and into two parts on there was a bombing and -- tried to assassinate him at that point in time. I was shocked that she sort of crawled through the city by zooming through a lot of things that Hitler's she need to. And she was given repeated warnings by the security and personnel on the law enforcement agencies. And in the basement there recording this political rally was secure it was fine and you know because that's what the government does but unfortunately this tragedy happened when she was matured enough the of their premises and she was. Sort of going on her car and as descendants of those four. Staying in a bullet proof car and a sort of zooming. Two a safe place. Instead you know she stopped her car and started to -- turbulent issues. And open source on grew from stuck her head out I mean you know despite the warnings but. That's still doesn't justify what happens to a -- you know in the so these that the sad part is that a voice has been silenced a voice which. That part of -- moderates which is still happens to be the majority were hoping for to build bridges with the west to be able to the be able to put. The more appropriate the more -- face of Islam as as a -- and truly exists. And for extremists and and and the fundamentalist who stepped in and and to do something like this his. Absolutely un Islamic it's in human and for them to do this in the name of Islam. Is it's outrageous justices preposterous so I mean. Nation is beefing about that the nation is crying about that and then this of of the saying that this is not Islam this is not the country that we know this is not the country but it we have better. But onto the positive side. Division that people have now is that. Maybe this was a posturing this situation just before the elections and and once elections ahead of hopefully due to be fair and square. And opening people's -- does come into power. And the the mission and deed the formula which was sort of put together but it come to fruition. You know on. But being in being -- being somewhat critical loaf of the diseases position should also say is is that on one hand she talks about democracy and and the -- of the vote and and bring the change about that the grouse foods levelled through the Dakota process but she's still ahead elections in a dorm party. A father was a chairman of the party than she became the tip of the party and then -- After the assassination according to -- And she had nominated her husband and and and her son who was nineteen you resort starting at Oxford in England as the party chairman so. So there is there is that is that dichotomy and is that you know pardon the warden hypocrisy that that you -- is that. As as that a violent said that sometimes the of the tribal allegiances a mortar board memo prevent and then -- and democracy. You're saying that they the moderates really do want a more democratic and then -- I assumed that the extremists and fundamentalist wanna. -- to have an Islamic state. What she had started to make some movie border reckless and some kisses and reckless statements I mean she. One of the positions that bucks on a stick and now is a blog will be even fight though war against terrorism on our own soil and on our own and we would not allow any troops to land. Ex Soviet -- had done on and so on and so forth. And bucks on isn't really proud about that that that this government has taken this position on the sheriff arrested in this position. Benazir came out and so that even -- -- US troops should come into bugs it's that was a huge Nomo who who who don't -- Those kinds of statements publicly at least you -- you do you're doing your due diligence and you look at the situation on the ground and then you make a decision as as commander in chief. The second statement that you made that did not serve and that the nation was. It coupon you know don't the granddaddy of a nuclear program who's revered as a national hero which by the -- government did not allow you as government come into view and investigate or. But he that create for that matter. Offered to give him up to the US government also associate mix of political blunder is also but stint as a justification to deal with -- differences in the manner that that it. Well we're very sorry about two what happens and it's sorry that you had to be there during that time -- To feel that and I trust that your family is safe. Thank you thank through that thing to -- and yes and they'll find and it's good to be back and let's just pray and hope that. We've been a stronger and misinformation. Well that's all the time that we have for today thank you for joining us this morning for talking religion on Boston's talk station WRKO. We hope that he'll join us again next Sunday at 5 AM as we continue to discuss issues of the day to Iraq respective religious glances. Thanks to the members of our interfaith panel father -- Kunin Catholic chaplain to students at Brandeis University. -- -- frank Waldorf rabbi emeritus of temple Sinai in Brookline sitting in for a doctor -- -- And mr. Mahmoud Jaafari spiritual leader of the Islamic must -- center Ian -- ten. And thanks to its Tyler Henderson for his technical assistance and now this is revenue on Kashmir extending TU an invitation to comment on today's program. Or to make suggestions for topics you'd like to hear discussed write to us -- talking religion care of WRKO. Twenty against street Brighton 2135. The news is up next an until next time -- the richest of God's blessings dealers